Dr Naveen Talwar (New Delhi, India) Rockland Hospitals

Edit Post

Doctor information and response from Rockland Hospitals, located in New Delhi, India. Contact them for specific information and latest updates.
Note: Please refer to our disclaimer about The Doctors Directory http://www.limblengtheningforum.com/index.php?topic=55.0



Background, Training and Qualifications (From Website):

Brief Profile
Dr. Naveen Talwar, Director, Department of Orthopaedics at Rockland Hospitals, has served in major corporate hospitals in Delhi and also received international exposure during this period. He has been attached as a Consultant in Embassies, eminent schools, PSUs and Corporates. He is advisor to NGOs and Medical Director for Rotary Club South End and member of reputed medical associations. Dr. Talwar has numerous publications to his credit both in National & International journals.

He has tried to exemplify the highest values by being a caring and compassionate physician while treating the body and mind of the patient during the healing process.

Professional Qualifications

• M.S (Orthopaedic Surgery ): King George’s Medical College, Lucknow
• M.B.B.S : UCMS, Safdarjung Hospital, New Delhi

Externship:
   - Clinique St. Jean Lanuedoc, Toulouse, France
   - Russel’s Hall Hospital, Birmingham, UK
   - Corbett Hospital, Stourbidge, UK

Previous Experience

He has clinical experience in the field of orthopaedics of more than 25 years. His last consignment was with Fortis Group of Hospitals where he was Senior Consultant and Medical Advisor in the Department of Orthopaedics. Formerly he was Senior Consultant, Department of Orthopaedics, Sir Ganga Ram Hospital, New Delhi. He is the Trustee and Founder Member of Cankids, Paediatric Palliative Care Centre, Gautam Nagar, New Delhi.

Also he is consultant to various organisations like:

• Embassies- France, Belgium, Cuba, Argentina, Pakistan
• Schools- Springdales School (New Delhi), Scottis High School (Gurgaon)
• Hotels- ITC
• Other Attachments- BHEL,DGHS,DDA,MCD,ESI,CGHS

He also has Teaching Experience. He has taken lectures for under-graduate students daily for 2 years. Also he has taken teaching rounds and bedside clinics, daily for 2 years as Senior Registrar. He has participated in lectures, seminars and tutorials regularly. He presented cases in Clinical Meeting of Indian Association of Orthopaedics in New Delhi.

Speciality Interest & Expertise

• Total Hip And Knee Arthroplasty
• Osteoporosis
• Advanced Trauma

Training and Certification

• International Conferences conducted as organizing Secretary:

   - Indian Arthroplasty Association meeting (International Chapter, at Indian Habitat Centre, Delhi in 1999)
   - SAARC National Orthopaedic Conference, at Indian Habitat Centre, New Delhi in 2001.
   - Hip 2005 – All Options; a meeting for Orthopaedic Surgeons with keen interest in Hip Arthroplasty at Sir Ganga Ram Hospital, New Delhi in year 2005
   - Launch of First ever computer assisted navigational joint replacement surgery at Sir Ganga Ram Hospital, New Delhi in January 2006.
   - Keen 2006 – All Options; a meeting for Orthopaedic Surgeons with keen interest in Knee Arthroplasty at Sir Ganga Ram Hospital, New Delhi in October 2006.

Talks and Lectures

• More than 100 talks and lectures on various Orthopaedic topics over the last 20 years in various Orthopaedic forums, conferences and workshops.
• DMA talk on Osteoporosis, 1997
• Appointed Medical Director, VLCC, Health Panel, 1999
• Newspaper articles in Times of India, Hindustan Times and Pioneer.
• Delhi Association of Doctors – Award for Excellence 2005
• Chaired a seminar on Osteoporosis, 2006
• Chaired a seminar on Joint Replacement, 2006
• Chaired a seminar on Arthroscopy, 2007
• Key note article on Medical Tourism, 2007
• 2007-2008: Chairman on Advisory Board of Orthopaedic Distance Learning Program.
• International Health Summit, 2008 – delivered lecture on “Recent trends of Health care industry in India”
• SGRH-2005 – DOA local Chapter Conference Address
• SGRH-2005 – Synposia on Osteoporosis
• SGRH-2008 – CME on Arthroplasty (New trends)

Fellowships and Courses
2008
- IMS International Congress, New Delhi, India
- North Zone Chapter of IOA, New Delhi, India
2005
- Pakistan Orthocon 2005, Islamabad, Pakistan.
- Uttaranchal Chapter (IOA), Nainital
2004
- Current Concepts in Arthroplasty, AIIMS, New Delhi
- World Presidents’ Organization South India Chapter, Bangalore
2003
- Ranawat Orthopaedic Research Foundation’s meeting, Goa, India
2002
- Two weeks Fellowship for advanced training in Hip and Knee joint replacement surgeries with Dr. C.S. Ranawat at his joint centre in New York.
- Workshop on Unicompartmental Knee replacement, Northern Railway Central Hospital, New Delhi.
2000
- 4th AO Alumni Symposium, Manesar, Haryana
1998
- American Academy of Orthopaedic Surgeons meeting, USA.
1997
- Total Knee Replacement work shop conducted by Dr. C. Engh, Washington, USA
- 12th International Congress of Pakistan Orthopaedic Association at Bhurban, Pakistan.
- AO Alumni Association Symposium, Amritsar, India
- Bioskill Workshops on Hip and Joint knee replacements, Bombay, India.
1996
- AO Advanced Spine course, Davos, Switzerland
1995
- AO Advanced course conducted by AO International, Switzerland
1993
- Isoelastic THR workshop, conducted Dr. Rob Mathys, Prof. R. Bombelli, Dr. Ali and Prof. P.S. Maini.
- Symposium GOC-93 on Joint replacement.
1991
- Ilizarov method course, conducted by Dr. Dror Paley, Maryland University, Baltimore, USA.
1990
- AO Basic Course, conducted by AO International, Switzerland.
1989
- Workshop on Arthroscopic Surgery, conducted by Dr. Gopal Krishna, Head-Arthroscopic, California, USA.
- Workshop on Arthroscopic Hands on Psychomotor Skills conducted by Dr. Dinesh Patel, Head-Arthroscopy Unit, Massachusetts General Hospital, Boston, Mass, USA.

Research & Publications:
- Diagnostic role of Arthroscopy in Intra-ARTICULAR Injuries of the Knee Joint: M.S – PG Thesis
- Hybrid fixation in Rotating Platform Knees using L.C.S Knee System
- Comparison of Femoral Anteversion in Hip Arthroplasties by Anterior and Posterior approach
- Bipolar T.H.R in Intertrochanteric Fractures- Present Research work
- Osteochondral Bone Grafting/ Harvesting of Cartilage- For Osteoarthritis of the Knee- present research work

Awards & Accolades:
- Best Intern Award
- Delhi Association of Doctors- Award of Excellence
- IMA Exemplary Service Award
- Distinguished Alumni Award with citation (2012) from Patel Education Trust

Professional Memberships
- Indian Orthopaedic Association (IOA)
- Delhi Orthopaedic Association (DOA)
- Arthroscopic Society Of India (ASI)
- Indo-French Orthopaedic Association (AFICOT)
- Indian Arthroplasty Association
- Delhi Arthroplasty Association
- Ao/Asif Association, Switzerland

OPD Schedule
Every Wednesday from 12 NOON to 2:00PM & Every Friday from 9:00AM to 1:00PM at Rockland Hospital, Qutub Institutional Area.
Every Saturday from 9:00AM to 12 NOON at Rockland Hospital, Dwarka.
Every Monday from 9:00AM to 11:00AM at Rockland Hospital, Manesar.

Response From Rockland Hospitals

Warm Greetings from Rockland Hospitals!

We do both procedures LON and LATN. A decision as to which procedure is apt is made depending on the bone strength. The cost in the case of the procedure will not vary. Please find below details:

- Stay at Hospital: 5-7 days
- Stay in India:  3 - 4 months if Possible. Otherwise patient can go back in 3-4 weeks and come back to India after 3 months.
- Estimated cost of Surgery:  USD 8,000 - 8,500 (Deluxe room); USD 7,500 - 8,000 (single room); USD 7,000 - 7,500 (twin room)

The complete package cost using Taylor Spatial Frames would be USD 9,500 including the implant.

PLEASE NOTE THAT TREATMENT COST OFFERED IS AN INDICATIVE COST AND IS SUBJECT TO CHANGE ON INTERNATIONAL CURRENCY FLUCTUATIONS AND OTHER EXTERNAL COST FACTORS. THE ACTUAL TREATMENT COST WILL BE DECIDED BY THE TREATING DOCTOR/HOSPITAL AFTER THE PROPER EXAMINATION OF PATIENT AND MEDICAL RECORDS/REPORTS.

Facilities for International Patients at Rockland Hospital , Delhi
·         Free consultation/medical diagnosis before patients arrival in India
·         Visa Assistance
·         Pick up and Drop from The International Airport from New Delhi
·         Prior Appointment scheduling
·         Foreign exchange services
·         International Cuisine for the Patient and one attendant
·         Post discharge consultation through email , Internet from the home country
·         Assistance in getting VISA extension from the airport in Delhi.
·         Provision for making direct payment to Rockland Hospital.
·         Provision for serviced apartments of Rockland Group for patient and attendant stay pre and post surgery

Hope this vital information will help your patient in deciding positively to avail treatment at our hospital.

We can provide medical visa letter. We would need passport of patient and attendant for the same, the letter will expedite the visa process.

Should you require any additional information / clarification, we shall be pleased to send it across.

Accommodation Options

I would not suggest you stay in the hospital for the simple reason it will be turn out to be an expensive option depending on the room category you chose. The Rockland Hotel stay is INR 6600 including breakfast, but it can be arranged at INR 3300 (approx USD 50) per day for you and your attendant (http://www.tripadvisor.com/Hotel_Review-g304551-d729965-Reviews-Hotel_Rockland-New_Delhi_National_Capital_Territory_of_Delhi.html). There is another option relatively cheaper for about INR 2200 for 2 people excluding breakfast, and its a comfortable accommodation called Hotel Indira.(http://www.tripadvisor.in/Hotel_Review-g304551-d1672202-Reviews-Indira_International_Hotel-New_Delhi_National_Capital_Territory_of_Delhi.html).

The approach road is narrow for this hotel (a SUV can go through comfortably though) but after speaking to a lot of our patients who stay there they find it affordable and very comfortable. Distance wise both hotels will take about 20 mins to get to the Hospital with regular traffic.

These are the 2 main places where majority of our patients stay, should you need more options I shall be happy to assist.

Please do travel with an attendant as you would require assistance post the procedure.

As for a caretaker, we can help assist you in arranging one at a cost.

Contact Information/Practice Locations:

Website
http://www.rocklandhospitals.com/index.php

E-mail
[email protected]

Rockland Qutab, South Delhi
B-33-34, Qutab Institutional Area,
Katwaria Sarai.
Ph: +91 - 11 - 47667100
E-mail: [email protected]


Rockland Manesar, Gurgaon
Plot No. P-2, Sector-5, IMT,Manesar.
Ph: 0124 - 4755555 / +91 8527590055
E-mail : [email protected]

Rockland Dwarka, Delhi
Sector-12, HAF-B, Phase-1
Ph: +91 - 11 -  8130390323
E-mail: [email protected]

Corporate Office:
Rockland Hospital,
B - 33, 34 , Qutab Institutional Area,
Tara Crescent Road, New Delhi – 110016
Ph : + 91 – 11 – 41222222 , 47667100 to 47667499
E-mail: [email protected]

Edit Post

Just as a note, the information in the response from the hospital is condensed info I received from a number of e-mails between myself and the hospital so it's not a verbatim response. I consolidated the info that I knew people would ask about.

Also, the hospital will perform externals or LON/LATN. I asked out of curiosity and they replied that internals are not approved in India and they will not do internal methods. They will do femurs with external fixation but we know that's not the best thing to do. As it is I think this doctor and hospital can possibly be a good option for tibia lengthening. When I have a consultation later in the month I will be able to give you all my personal opinion about the doctor and hospital.

Edit Post

Quote from: TheRisingShorty on April 04, 2014, 01:35:09 AMI thought Taylor Spatial frames are not available in India?

According to Dr. Parihar they are not approved but it wouldn't be impossible for this hospital to have them. After all Dr Parihar himself used TSF in India after getting the frames donated to him by people in the UK and USA.

I think Rockland either has TSF's that were given to them from outside India or the hospital rep used TSF's interchangably with locally made hexapod fixators that they could use and really meant those and not real TSF's

Edit Post

Quote from: Polycrates. on April 04, 2014, 12:43:44 AMI sent a request for a consultation/examination before I depart. Perhaps he can actually soothe my qualms about alignment and my toe by actually applying the appropriate method of analysis, rather than telling me everything is fine or that things "will settle down". Of course, I'll let everyone know how I find him.

Hopefully he'll be able to give you suggestions on what to do when you get back home. Will be interesting to know your thoughts on Dr. Talwar once you see him.

Quote from: TheRisingShorty on April 04, 2014, 08:12:02 AMHe seems like a very good option in India! He is a qualified LL surgeon with lots of overseas training (including Paley) I am wondering whether he has performed bilateral CLL on patients before and their outcome? Also whether he performs LATP?
Thank you very much Kilokahn for finding and posting Dr.Talwar's details here. It keeps our options open to credible yet within price range doctors

The hospital rep said he's performed CLL before, but I didn't get into the specifics of whether the patients were local or international. I think most of his lengthening has been deformity correction. One of the articles I found with Dr Talwar was a story in Hindustan Times about how he did a deformity correction on a woman from Nigeria whose leg was shorter than the other by 5.5 cm.

http://www.hindustantimes.com/india-news/newdelhi/delhi-docs-put-nigerian-woman-back-on-her-feet/article1-496032.aspx


I'll be seeing three additional doctors in Delhi and will post their information here as well. The very first consultation I will have when I arrive in Delhi will be with Dr. Talwar, as Rockland Hospitals will be picking me up from the airport. I'm keeping Dr Talwar as an option based on his resume, but I cannot commit or anything until I get a feel for how he is in person.

So my choices are:

1) Dr Mangal Parihar
2) Dr Naveen Talwar

I did a rough cost breakdown for how much it would cost me to get lengthening done with either doctor. It may be different based on a few things but it gives a good idea.

Dr Mangal Parihar Cost Estimate
Surgical Fees: 900,000 INR ($14,965)
Hotel:  $4,500 - $,6000
Food: $2,000
Flight to Mumbai from Delhi (two ways): $350.00
Flight to India and back: $3,000
Bills from USA while in India: $4,500

Total: $29,350  - $31,000

Dr Naveen Talwar Cost Estimate
Surgical Fees: $7,000 - 8,500
Hotel: $4,500 – $6,000
Food: $2,000
Flight to India and back: $3,000
Bills back home: $4,500

Total: $21,000  - $22,500


The reason I am leaning toward Dr Parihar is based on a couple things. Firstly, because he has a lot of youtube videos I already have a better idea of his level of expertise in Ilizarov and what his personality is like through his lectures. Secondly, and perhaps more importantly, although both Dr Parihar and Dr Talwar trained under Dr Paley and have knowledge in Ilizarov, limb lengthening and deformity correction is Dr Parihar's primary interest. He's doing it all the time and it's his main focus. Dr Talwar's primary interest is not in limb lengthening, but rather on hip and knee problems, even though he has the credentials to make him very knowledgeable in Ilizarov methods. I just have that extra layer of confidence in Dr Parihar that complications that pop up would be dealt with appropriately. That's not to say Dr Talwar wouldn't do the same, but because I don't know anything yet about the man himself, that degree of security is not yet there. Though that could change.

I can say I'd feel more safe going to Dr Talwar than Drs Sarin or Sringari that's for sure.

Edit Post

This is great information, thanks. What a relief about your toe. Are you going to wait the extra month and use braces like he advises? Did the callus formation of the Sringari patients really look that much worse than Dr Talwar's?

I'll have to ask him about why he prefers monorails to Ilizarov because even though they're more archaic there's that chance of malalignment with the monorail devices. Presumably he'd make adjustments as necessary with someone doing externals or LATN before the rod is put in, but from what I understand you can't make those kind of adjustments with the nail inside as with LON. I know Dr Parihar likes using LON also, but he definitely prefers using the classic Ilizarov fixation devices over the monorails. I'll have to ask Dr P about why he doesn't use monorails as much.

Interesting about Dr Talwar's opinion on Sringari doing the fixation properly, but then I wonder how Russianblues's situation happened with the screw sticking out.

Also good to know that he gave you as thorough an analysis as he possibly could and answered your questions. Did you ask him about his opinion on post-operative weight bearing? What was the state of his private clinic like?

Edit Post

They don't have plans for precice in the meantime.

As per Rockland Hospitals:

"Our team of doctors have come back to me and unfortunately we cannot use the internal PRECICE nail, therefore will not be using this implant for sometime in the near future."

The hospital knows it is approved for use in India but they don't want to use it as of right now. Parihar would be the only option for precice in India at this point.

Edit Post

Here is information about Dr Gurdeep Singh Ratra, another of the surgeons that perform CLL along with Dr Talwar at Rockland Hospitals.



Background, Training, and Qualifications (From Website):

Brief Profile
Dr. Gurdeep Singh Ratra, Consultant, Department of Orthopaedics at Rockland Hospitals, has clinical experience of more than 13 years in the field of Orthopaedics. He has done fellowship in Joint Replacement from two of Europe's most prestigious Institutes - AKH hospital, Vienna, Austria which is one of Europe's largest hospitals; and Endoklinik, Germany which is amongst the world's premier institutes specializing only in Joint Replacement surgery.

He has special Interest in Joint replacement and Deformity correction. He is passionate about Ilizarov technique and limb-lengthening procedures. He has been associated with Rockland Hospitals since 2013 and currently he is rendering his services at Rockland Hospital, Manesar.

Professional Qualifications

• M.S. (ORTHOPAEDICS)
• M.Ch. (ORTHOPAEDICS)
• Fellowship In Joint Replacement (Germany)
• Fellowship In Joint Replacement and Sports Medicine (Austria)
• M.B.B.S.

Previous Experience:
Prior to Rockland, he has worked with some of the reputed hospitals of Gujarat and Delhi-NCR. His past consignment was with Fortis Hospital where he worked as Consultant, Orthopaedics. Also he has worked with Umkal Multi-speciality Hospital, Gurgaon, Sir Ganga Ram Hospital, New Delhi, Batra Hospital, New Delhi and MNL Municipal Medical College, Ahmedabad.

He also has a teaching experience during his Residency and Senior Residency period.

Speciality Interest & Expertise:
- Complex trauma
- Deformity correction (Ilizarov)
- Joint replacement

Training & Certifications
- Attended 5th National Trauma Management Course conducted under the aegis of Academy of Traumatology (India) and University of Witwatersrand, Johannesburg, South Africa in December 2001.
- Attended the Exeter Course (for Hip Arthroplasty) in December 2004.
- Participated in Pre-Conference Hands-on Workshop on Basic Arthroscopy during the 49th IOACON.
- Participated in Pre-Conference Hands-on Workshop on Primary Hip Arthroplasty during the 49th IOACON.
- Attended International Symposium on Hip & Knee Joint Arthroplasty held in Hamburg, Germany from 31st May - 1st June 2007.
- Fellowship in Joint Replacement & Sports Medicine (Vienna, Austria) (2nd April to 15th May 2007)
- Fellowship in Joint Replacement (Hamburg, Germany) (16th May to 30th June 2007)

Research & Publications:
- “Posterior Spinal Cord Compression - Outcome and Results” in ‘Spine’ Journal Vol. 31 (17), 1 Aug. 2006, pp E574-E578.   
- “Tricalcium Phosphate Bone Grafting in Histiocytosis- X Scapula - A Case Report” in Orissa Medical Journal 2006 (Vol. 25 No.1 Pg 29—31).
- “Management Of Open Fractures – Original Article” in Journal of Orthopaedics 2007; 4(1)e18
- “Management Of Fractures Of The Calcaneum” in Journal of Orthopaedics 2009; 6(1)e3

Awards & Accolades:
- Prof. M.C.Mishra Memorial Award (Under the auspices of Indian Medical Association) for the best case report published in Orissa Medical Journal during the year 2006.

Professional Memberships:
- Indian Orthopaedic Association
- Delhi Orthopaedic Association

OPD Schedule
Every Monday to Saturday:10:00 AM- 4:00 PM  at Rockland Hospital, Manesar.

Here are samples from his website http://www.drgurdeepsingh.com. I believe this site shows cases from before he started working at Rockland Hospitals.

Ilizarov Fixator
Short leg before surgery:

Short leg after surgery:

Immediate post-surgery x-ray:

After lengthening:

Legs equal:

Legs equal:

Walking before surgery:

Walking after surgery:


Monorail Fixator
Deformity before surgery:

Short leg:

Patient before surgery:

Immediately after surgery:

X-Ray before surgery:

X-Ray immediately after surgery:

Beginning of bone lengthening:

Further lengthening:

Legs equal:

After lengthening:

Final x-ray:

Final x-ray:

Walking before surgery:

Walking presently:


Deformity Correction with Ilizarov
Badly deformed foot after accident:

Before surgery:


Immediately after surgery:

Gradually correcting:



After frame removal:

Final result:

Edit Post

Quote from: Adriano on April 30, 2014, 02:54:21 AMYou would think thats the first thing these guys would put up in ad like these.

Experience is more important than fancy credentials that can easily be polished up or even made up to some extent.

The thing is though, many surgeons well-versed in Ilizarov are in the business to help people with serious deformities and functional problems. They may accept cosmetic patients, but if it's not their primary target then there's no need for them to throw advertisements everywhere, especially because of the risk CLL has.

Quote from: IamAndrew on April 30, 2014, 02:59:27 AMI guess that answers the question. Aren't deformities more difficult and fickle than CLL? If their team can handle deformities like the ones above, wouldn't they be able to do CLL no sweat?

Also, Taylor Spatial Frames look pretty brutal. Those would be used for LON or LATN, correct? Do we know what kind of scarring and long-term recovery this device would yield?

Here is a leg that used TSF I found in google images.
http://andyw-inuk.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Community-Albums/Bike-Crash/P1080732/249960614_UE6Ck-L.jpg
This guy has tons of picts from over 14 month period.
http://andyw-inuk.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/Community-Albums/Bike-Crash/6461906_ueRMN#!i=249960614&k=UE6Ck
Looks like he had an injury beforehand that required it.

I've been of the opinion that a doctor who primarily does reconstructive surgeries with Ilizarov would be better for prospective patients than a doctor who primarily does cosmetic surgeries with Ilizarov because they would likely be better at recognizing and treating abnormalities that arise during the distraction phase. Dr Parihar said the same thing later and it reinforced my opinion on the matter.

From what Bigfaker wrote about his meeting with Dr Parihar:

"He [Parihar] talked about the fact that many lengthening docs are doing primarily cosmetic work and deemed it 'a paradox' because (in his opinion) the people doing lengthening should be the ones with very solid backgrounds in Ilizarov (which I took to mean Reconstructive/Deformity specialists like himself). An example he gave: if he treats a guy with an infected non-union, heals his bone, gets him to where his functionally is much improved...but still having a 1cm length discrepancy between legs... it's a success, a great positive result from where he was. With a cosmetic patient, if a doctor gives him 6cm gain, but reduces the dorsiflexion of the knee to just neutral, he has 'made that patient abnormal'. The margin for error in cosmetic lengthening is much less. Furthermore, he said, cosmetic patients are 'probably the most demanding subgroup of patients'. But they will be aware of the potential risks and complications. I think the most memorable thing he said is that any of the complications (non-union, neurological injuries) that can come up in cosmetic are 'part-and parcel of the Ilizarov techniques', so he would give the edge to a doc who has done 1000 reconstructive Ilizarovs over one who had 50 cosmetic."

http://www.limblengtheningforum.com/index.php?topic=87.15

Edit: As far as TSF goes, I'm not sure what the difference in scarring would be compared to traditional fixation devices. The good thing about them is that they allow for very accurate deformity corrections. Some doctors like using them even for cosmetic cases, whereas others think there's no advantage to using them in a cosmetic case and you're wasting money by using them for a cosmetic purpose. They do look like very sturdy fixation devices though.

Edit Post

Quote from: Gichelu on May 28, 2014, 10:21:03 PMHas anybody thought about going to this doctor? I looked him up on google and this article said Dr Talwar is considered one of the best doctors in Delhi.

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/Doc+exodus+paralyses+Ganga+Ram+Hospital/1/80822.html

He's the first doctor I'll be consulting with and is currently in my top three options based on creds. I'll post details of my consultation with him afterward.

Edit Post

What made me decide not to do CLL with Dr Talwar's team is that they don't fixate the fibula, which I was told was very important by three ASAMI members. Dr Verma, the main surgeon of Dr Talwar's team, was a nice guy though.