This is a thread to get some outside opinions of stopping short of 8 CM when lengthening w/ Precice 2.2 on the femurs. I am currently just shy of 6 CM and my plan is to stop at 6.1. My initial goal was 6 CM, as I feel like that is a good balance of recovery and length. Recovery is very important to me, if going another 2 CM means that I lose another 10% athletic ability I would not take the trade off. I am starting to get extremely tight, as I can't even bend my left knee past 90 degrees right now. I started at around 173CM and measure at 179CM now, and am in my mid-late 20s.
Standing up around family and friends on my walker I feel comfortable now. I feel fairly confident I would no longer think about my height if I were to stop where I am at. But I also do not want to regret not going the extra 2 cm in the future. Proportions matter at least a little to me, and I started with femurs on the longer end to begin with (.78 tibia to femur ratio).
I am 90% certain I will stop at 6 CM regardless, but I want to make sure I am looking at this through the correct lens. Give me your thoughts.
Quote from: p00293 on April 11, 2023, 08:54:32 PMNo one is going to notice proportions based on one 8cm length, I don't care how tall you were before or what your leg measurements were, no one notices 8cm, it'll be well within the normal range of human body sizes.
You're going to get a lot of soy paladins coming into this thread essentially opting for the less risky cucked option of stopping, along with platitudes like 'if you're feeling more confident now then that's when to stop as it's all about your mental well being blah blah blah'. I'm going to lay it on straight however: at this sort of height from like 170cm-183cm, every cm matters. Below that you're always going to be a manlet, above it you're above average and will never have any issues with any height discrimination, whether that's at work or romantically. However, within that 170-183 sort of range, your life will literally improve by each successive centimetre. 179 is a hell of a lot better than 173, but by the same token 181 is definitely better than 179.
Let's get real about muh athletic ability, you're not a professional footballer making bank and slaying women based on your sporting prowess, and I doubt you're at the top of whatever game you play. If we're just talking a kickabout with the lads after work on Friday or whatever the equivalent is in the sport you're thinking of, then being taller will be a HELL of a lot more valuable than being a tiny bit better in some amateur sports. As for walking and going up/down stairs etc (basically what 99% of the legs are used for) you can expect a full recovery of those even at 8cm.
Crack on and get the last 2cm done.
Respect for the honest opinion and taking the time to respond to each point.
I agree that most won't notice proportions. I do believe the proportions from femur lengthening are noticeable in pictures/videos, but almost not at all in person. However lengthening your femur will have a significant effect on biomechanics.Things like squatting, deadlifting, running etc.. I suppose you can make an argument that I've already f*cked up my biomechanics regardless, but I'd like to find the point at where I am maximizing satisfaction with my height with salvaging some ability. I was not a professional athlete, but I was definitely an athlete, worked out religiously for years, played softball/football(american) recreationally and usually was fastest or second fastest on field. I know those days are gone, but I am still taking my recovery into consideration.
People spend lots of time going to sports therapists after injuries to regain athletic ability beyond what is required for everyday life, even though they are not professionals. All that being said is that athleticism can still hold value to someone who is not a professional athlete. I probably place a higher value on it than others, just due to my lifestyle.
By your logic, I can only get to 181 cm anyway, so I should also go get tibias done as well to get the extra 2CM and be 183. A 2 CM difference is just footwear. I am not into the numbers game of you need to be this specific height to be completely satisfied. That is going to be different for everyone, and is highly dependent on who you spend your time around.
My perspective on this is different from a lot of people because this surgery really was more mental than anything else for me. You mentioned height discrimination at work/romantically, but I've always had success in my career already, I have a long term girlfriend, never felt like I couldn't get girls at all because of my height. I hit the threshold I feel I needed to.
All that being said, you bring some good points. I think others reading this will benefit from your perspective and I don't take anything away from it. Are you planning on doing lengthening/have you already done lengthening?
Quote from: Confidence on April 11, 2023, 09:43:13 PMJust do the last 2cm. You’ll regret not going for it once you stand next to a 185+ guy at 179.
Actually funny you mention this, I was around some guys standing on my walker who are probably 183-186 over the weekend and felt eye level with them, like I wasn't looking up to them. Part of the reason why I feel okay stopping.
Quote from: hippo60 on April 12, 2023, 03:00:47 AMYou don't need to convince anyone other than yourself whether you should stop or not. Do what feels right to you.
It's really hard to grasp the impact on recovery between 6cm and 8cm. It's pretty obvious that you're going to recover faster if you do less. But are you going to lose more athletic ability? That's harder to answer. Let's assume for a second your athletic ability is going to be the same, but you will recover 50% faster (just throwing a number). Does it change your decision?
Your tightness is something to be more concerned with. You should definitely be able to bend your knees to at least (!) 90 degrees, and also straighten your leg with your knee touching the floor. If not then I assume your doctor might have something to say about it as well (feel free to share who that is if you're comfortable).
Other than that, how are you feeling about LL in general? Are you dreading every single day and just dying to finish? Are you in pain? Or you're just chilling? That can also make a huge difference, and there is no shame about it.
As for p00293's response - I'm 99.99999% he didn't do LL. While (some of) his arguments may seem somewhat reasonable, they're also quite silly as well. It's pretty easy to tell who actually did (or is doing) LL versus who is just talking about it. Keep in mind that most people who came here and did LL completed their recovery and forgot about this forum, so you're left with people who are going through it right now (typically they'll have a diary, but not always, like me 
), and the rest (which is the vast majority) - people who have no fking clue about LL other than reading and watching videos. You should be VERY cautious about their "advice" and "feedback". Personally I believe it's completely worthless, but you're welcome to think differently.
Thanks for the response.
Thats a good question about recovery. If I could guarantee I would recover 50% faster, I probably would be inclined to stop at or around 6 CM. From what I have heard, every MM after 6 CM increases recovery exponentially as opposed to linearly, but not sure how true that is.
I plan on doing a diary at some point, or a summary of my journey more so, but to give some background my surgeon is Dr. Assayag. They are concerned with the lack of knee flexion in my left knee, and if I were to continue they would slow me down to .75 or .5 MM a day. But he does believe I will regain the flexion back when fully recovered. He is truly a great doctor, and he will support me whatever my decision.
I am eager to get back to normal activities, but I have no pain currently. The most annoying thing is the gabapentin definitely affects my mental state, and gives me brain fog. Besides that, the only challenging thing is PT.
Another thing is I am going back to work in two weeks. I work mostly a hybrid job, and Ill probably work from home the first 1-2 weeks regardless, but that is impacting my decision as I would like to be done lengthening by the time I go back.
I did post this question on the d as well, and got a lot of the same responses. One individual who recently completed LL and went the full 8 said he would not feel satisfied if he stopped at 6. Most of the response there was the same, that I should go for a full 8, but it can be an echo chamber in these spaces so I heed your warning of caution.
I am giving myself a few bonus millimeters regardless, but ultimately I know I am the one that has to decide when to stop. I don't have anyone I can deliberate this with in my life since I haven't told many people about this, so I appreciate your engagement on this post, it is extremely useful in helping me decide.
Quote from: informationispower on April 12, 2023, 07:47:00 AMLol at the incels above who didnt even do the surgery. Anyway, you are smart. 6cm is very good and 179cm is not short anywhere and no one besides height obsssesed people can notice the difference between you and s 6 footer
Thanks, this is my general feeling too. Goal was never to be "tall", just wanted not to be "short"
Quote from: p00293 on April 12, 2023, 10:41:36 AMNo it doesn't mean you need Tibia surgery, it just simply means that at each centimetre within that range your life gets better. That has to be weighed up against the costs and time taken - another surgery would put you out tens of thousands of dollars and months more time, whereas doing the last 2cm here and now requires you to just grit your teeth and suffer 20 more days - the reward to cost ratio is much better.
Saying "no one notices" an extra couple of centimetres, well its just not really true. True, i probably couldn't accurately tell the difference between a 179 guy and a 180 or 181 guy in terms of being able to accurately determine their height walking past them on the street. That doesn't mean its "not noticable" though, as these things work off a sliding scale, subconsciously people will treat you better taller and they don't need to be able to name your exact height for it.
For girls, no, being 173cm definitely cost you some lays. Just because you "did fine" at 173 means little: no one except retards think its not possible to get laid as a short man, just that it's significantly harder than IF THE SAME VERSION OF YOURSELF WAS TALLER. Whatecer success you had before, you'd have done BETTER if taller. That difference is far less from 179 vs 181, but don't let anyone delude themselves its not there. Footwear is irrelevant as there's no reason one can't do the extra 2cm AND wear chunky trainers, it's not one or the other.
As for myself, booked in, paid for the surgery, will start it in 5 days.
It's not only about "not being short". I'll agree 179cm is perfrctly average. But once you've broken your legs already, you want to maximise the benefits you're getting. This isn't the same as a 178cm guy who did 6cm and is asking about continuing more - because in that case the extra centimetres aren't gonna change a whole lot. 181 vs 179 is important enough to make it worth another 20 days of your time and another month or two of crappy walking. There's a good reason 90% of patients do the max 8cm on Femur - you can assume most of the other 10% didn't stop out of choice either, but necessity.
If I really was not satisfied with only 6 CM, I wouldn't be concerned with the cost of an additional surgery. I would be concerned with the additional trauma to the body.
I should disclose that a lot of this surgery has been covered by insurance in my case since I had a limb deformity (retroversion) that Dr. Assayag corrected along with a meniscectomy in addition to the lengthening. I actually haven't received any bills from the surgery itself yet since my insurance is still processing the claim. I will probably have to pay for the lengthening nails and maybe some other items, looking in the 30-40k range. If I had already shelled out 70k I might be more inclined to go for the full 8, I don't know. I just can't see a 2 cm difference mattering that much where I would risk additional functionality/athleticism. You even mentioned in a previous post that you wouldn't consider the surgery if you were 5'11
I won't argue that I *could* have had more success w/ women if I was 6 ft, assuming everything else was equal. Although its never equal, being shorter gave me a chip on my shoulder that led to a lot of my success that then led to more success w/ women. Regardless, that's not a huge concern since I have a long term girlfriend.
Footwear is not irrelevant since most people in the normal-tall range of height are not consciously wearing thick footwear to be taller, so you close the gap with those '"normies" by wearing your air maxes or timbs. Yes anyone can do it, but most people don't care enough to do it, they just wear whats comfortable.
I'd like to see actual numbers of how many patients actually get 8. I'd believe its more than 50%, but 90% seems like a stretch.
Best of luck with your surgery bud, see you on the other side.
Quote from: DanishViking on April 12, 2023, 11:02:15 AMI agree with some of the others. You should stop lengthening if you feel like you height dysphoria is gone and you don't crave anymore height. Don't listen to op, 2 cm is definitly not noticeable, and many people experience prolonged time waiting to fully recover and some never do because they decided to overlengthen and was in a similiar situation. Cyborg4Life recently talked about this in one of his live videoes, where he recommended to stay in the safe range between 6-7 cm on the femurs, cuz most people who do more don't fully recover or get's limited Range of motion, kind of like how your're describing it, but worse. And why suffer that fate for freaking 1-2 cm? Better posture than others will give you that, and the difference is absolutely minimal. Put 2 people side by side where the difference is between 1-2 cm and you will have to stand with a loop to see the difference, cuz it's barely their...
- 29:20
Thanks for posting that video, really brings some perspective to it. My range of motion on my left knee is definitely an issue, which is contributing to my thoughts of stopping. Dr. Assayag does not seem too worried that I will not be able to get it back, but he does want me to slow down so I can catch up if I were to continue.
Quote from: ballsackoffury123 on April 13, 2023, 01:19:54 AMAre you stopping because it gets really hard 5+cm in? I'm at 24mm so I cant understand, but when it gets super hard I'll have no issue slowing down. 0.75mm a day or 0.5/0.25, whatever. an extra 20-30 days of lengthening wont be anything compared to the next 80 years I hope to live.
You already spent the money, and surgery, and all that, why stop shy of an 8 cm goal? Athletic ability of 6cm and 8cm (when fully healed in 1-2 years) will be pretty indiffferent I think. As long as you are not a professional player who cares if you can sprint at 99% vs 96% top speed.
Hey man, glad to hear you're doing well. Ironically I was just reading your post in the thread about IT band releases, as that is what my PT and the Dr think is limiting my knee flexion. I did have the release, but mine may have grown back too fast on my left side. Going to try to keep stretching it before considering getting a re-release, doctors typically don't like doing those.
If I didn't have this flexion issue, there would be no physical indications that I need to slow down or stop. Apart from tightness & nerve irritation which required me to get on gabapentin, the whole process has been smooth. Definitely not easy, but I am pleased and have no regrets. Going to 8 would require slowing down to at least .75MM/day, probably .5, and adds some more time into consolidation and soft tissue recovery.
If only I had a TemPad from the Loki series to jump timelines, then I could see how the alternate version of myself recovered when I do 8 CM vs when I do 6 CM. Reality is whichever one I choose, I'll never know how the other would have fared.
Appreciate your perspective. a 3% difference in athleticism would probably not be a deal breaker, but it is something I would consider when talking about trading off for an extra 2 CM.
Quote from: throwaway123456 on April 13, 2023, 03:20:17 AMI have done 8 cm on my femurs, I am 178.5 cm now, after surgery (RFem i year ago, LHS surgery was completed 3 years ago) I can squat but my balance in that position is very bad and i have to lean forward to maintain balance as my femurs are too long, and getting up from full squat is very bad due to tight/sore knees and weak/sore/tight TFL i def can't perform any kind of weighted squat as T/F ratio is bad (39cm/54 cm = 0.72) , and my knees really are stressed in that position.
I can't run very fast at all anymore as my T/F ratio feels wrong and my femurs are weak and my knees are tight (flexion reduced from 150 to 135 degrees) and my gait/stride length is tight/reduced as the RHS leg gets tight when i take long strides, and thighs are weak, I have been doing yoga cobra stretches to try to reduce tightness as my hip flexion has reduced significantly.
My duckass has improved in the last year, but my hips still tilt forward and my belly hangs more forward than before, I seem to have lost 0.5 cm in height because of my remaining duckass.
Originally I could stand/sit reach 20cm below my toes but now I cant reach my toes as my hamstrings (particularly RHS) are way to tight.
I have considered Tib lengthening (maybe 4cm) to improve my T/F ratio for both physical and aesthetic reasons, btw I have just purchased an inversion table in the hope it will help my duckass and tight lower/mid spine (maybe related to my CLL , but not sure).
Woah, thanks for sharing. So you did unilateral lengthening? What would you do differently if you could do it again?
Quote from: hippo60 on April 13, 2023, 03:46:49 AMI believe the data shows that recovery (and complications, and other things) increases exponentially after 5cm. I think it's safe to assume 6cm will be fairly significantly faster. The rule of thumb is 1 month of consolidation for each lengthening month, and then you have everything else on top of that.
Are you still at 1MM? That's pretty fast, and honestly could be a big reason for your tightness. From what I've seen it's very common to slow down to 0.75 (or even less) throughout the lengthening, for some people it's at 2-3cm and for others could be 6-7cm. I think it's typically people who are very flexible (and maybe young?) who manage to stay at 1MM. Rozbruch doesn't even start at 1MM unless you're very young ( he does 0.8 ). Also, how long are you stretching / doing PT? You might want to increase that regardless of anything.
Slowed down to .75MM after some nerve irritation at 45MM. Got on gabapentin so talked w/ Dr.A and agreed to do even days at 1MM and odd days at .75. Now he has asked me to slow down to .5 for the remainder. Slowing down earlier would have been a good idea in my case.
Quote from: hippo60 on April 13, 2023, 03:46:49 AMGetting back to your job might swing the decision. Are you able (or even want to) delay that? Or that's set in stone? I imagine it might be harder to find the time to stretch and focus on LL while back.
I could delay it a few weeks, but I have already told my boss I am coming back. Also, my leave is through Family Medical Leave(FMLA) so my job protection ends in a few weeks. Not that I think my job would fire me if I were to need a few extra weeks, but I would rather work from home longer if I decided to go for more length. Regardless going back to work impacts my ability and energy to stretch as you mentioned, which is my biggest concern.
Quote from: hippo60 on April 13, 2023, 03:46:49 AMKeep in mind you don't have to make that decision right now, and it doesn't have to be 6cm or 8cm. There are lots of options in between. Plenty of people started with one number in mind and for various reasons stopped short, and that's perfectly fine. I think you can just keep going, probably slow down, and see how you feel about it. I'm pretty sure you'll know it when you're done.
That being said, you sound very happy with the result, and not overly obsessed about chasing the numbers (or getting distracted by noise). Personally I have a feeling you'll be just fine. I also think you don't really notice any difference at 2cm, and only start to see/feel it around 3-4cm. Which for me is another way to think about how silly it is to get obsessed over every millimeter.
Regardless of when you stop, you may also want to write down your decision somewhere (maybe this thread can serve that purpose). So in a couple of months/years, if you do end up wondering why you stopped - you'll be able to remind yourself the mental state you were in.
Great advice, I wanted to test the reasoning of my decision against those who disagree, and I feel I have accomplished that. I think for some it is better to go the full 8. For me, my initial goal was 6 CM and I have reached that. I definitely have been journaling this experience, and will be sure to keep a record of why I decided to stop. Currently I am at 60.5 per the ERC, I am giving myself at least another day, and then deciding:)
Quote from: throwaway123456 on April 13, 2023, 12:13:15 PMYes I did Unilateral, i was resistant at first, but the Doctor (and finances) convinced me, I must admit having one good leg makes you far more independent and I wasn't too much of a burden on others.
I regret not choosing Precice in my first lengthening, Fitbone is too complex and mine failed after 5.3 cm, this (and work/money pressures) resulted in me needing another lengthening years later (with Precice) to reach full the 8cm , spending more money and having uneven length femurs for 3 years with associated reduction in mobility/agility and wearing unsightly and clunky built up shoes.
Do you feel your reduction in ability/mobility is at all associated with going for 8CM, or solely from the unilateral aspects and failure of the fitbone?
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