Quote from: overandover on November 14, 2022, 06:08:42 AMPain and discomfort are two different things. I think full external will be less painful because there's no trauma from nailing.
Best of luck with your externals surgery!
I had been researching this surgery for 15+ years, starting with the illizarov frames. I ended up getting the precice 2.2 in August. All I can tell you is 10/10 pain for me here. I’m not trying to scare you, but make sure you stretch a ton before surgery because there’s surgery pain and then there’s lengthening pain from when your joints and nerves stretch. Too that with weeks of strenuous physical therapy.
If you decide to proceed with this surgery just make sure you know that there is no other pain you have felt in this lifetime quite as similar to this.
Based on what I see in Athens, based on the screams during physio and complications, and based on the forum comments, I think maybe its something like this:
I think technically someone who is doing femur internal + external tibia at the same time might be the most painful option but lets not include that situation because I don't know anyone who did it
Most painful: full externals frames (the metal cage with pins) based on the screams I've heard from the externals patient here and his description of his pain. the main thing is like during physio, his pain is not like even really that much from muscle stretching so much as pain related to the pins it seems
next most painful: probably LON?
I know that ISKD and Fitbone still exist but Betz does not like them because of corrosion problems + other doctors don't like ISKD for rate control issues I think? can't remember
Next most painful: Quadrilateral (ex: 4 nails in you lengthening), I feel like this is alot of stretching pain to do, even if its precise. I can't remember if Betz/Guichet ever do 4 clicking nails in someone but I imagine that would be short term more painful than precise (but clicking pain decrease as time passes I find)
if we rate pain on a scale from 0 to 10..
Next: I think clicking femur nails (gnail, betzbone, though rumor is betzbone might be easier to click than gnail) are in the short term more painful than precise, but I am not sure about the long term across the 6 months after the surgery. My clicking pain went from like 2 to 7 pain at first now down to like 0-1 pain after a few weeks, its usually about 0-0.5 pain now for gnail femurs for me. So I feel like in return for a few weeks of clicking pain, the rest of the months are easier compared to precise and my walking seems to be better (due to weight bearing for clicking nails) than the precise femur patient who got the surgery done around the same time as me. But yes clicking in the first weeks or so can be stressful
Next: probably precise femurs because of the femur muscle stretching
Next: hm... I think clicking tibias and precise tibias might almost be a tie, most people seem to say that clicking tibias doesn't hurt that much and in return you also can stand up which seems like less suffering in the long term during your recovery compared to precise tibias. I might be wrong. So I think it's another situation where precise tibias should be short term less pain than clicking tibias technically, but not necessarily by that much
Anyone wanna correct me?
With gnail femurs, the most pain I've ever had is during physio stretching (hamstrings and quads, mostly hamstrings). I described that pain as 8 out of 10 but maybe I should have rated it 10 like the guy above since it was the most physical pain I've ever felt in my life --and so maybe it should have been 10 by definition. The only reason I didn't rate it higher was because I was also hearing the screams of the guy doing externals and assumed my pain is probably less than his. Recently my physio stretching pain at about 1.5-2 months after the surgery has been closer to 6-7 out of 10 pain mostly
Interesting, was it still 10/10 pain with the intravenous pain meds? I know pain levels vary through out different patients but high/low pain tolerance shouldn't be the difference between a 2/10 (annoying) pain and 10/10 (torture) pain, right?
Quote from: trademitech on November 18, 2022, 07:03:42 AMI had been researching this surgery for 15+ years, starting with the illizarov frames. I ended up getting the precice 2.2 in August. All I can tell you is 10/10 pain for me here. I’m not trying to scare you, but make sure you stretch a ton before surgery because there’s surgery pain and then there’s lengthening pain from when your joints and nerves stretch. Too that with weeks of strenuous physical therapy.
If you decide to proceed with this surgery just make sure you know that there is no other pain you have felt in this lifetime quite as similar to this.
Interesting, was it still 10/10 pain with the intravenous pain meds? I know pain levels vary through out different patients but high/low pain tolerance shouldn't be the difference between a 2/10 (annoying) pain and 10/10 (torture) pain, right?
Quote from: SpeedDialer on November 18, 2022, 02:11:12 PMBased on what I see in Athens, based on the screams during physio and complications, and based on the forum comments, I think maybe its something like this:
I think technically someone who is doing femur internal + external tibia at the same time might be the most painful option but lets not include that situation because I don't know anyone who did it
Most painful: full externals frames (the metal cage with pins) based on the screams I've heard from the externals patient here and his description of his pain. the main thing is like during physio, his pain is not like even really that much from muscle stretching so much as pain related to the pins it seems
next most painful: probably LON?
I know that ISKD and Fitbone still exist but Betz does not like them because of corrosion problems + other doctors don't like ISKD for rate control issues I think? can't remember
Next most painful: Quadrilateral (ex: 4 nails in you lengthening), I feel like this is alot of stretching pain to do, even if its precise. I can't remember if Betz/Guichet ever do 4 clicking nails in someone but I imagine that would be short term more painful than precise (but clicking pain decrease as time passes I find)
if we rate pain on a scale from 0 to 10..
Next: I think clicking femur nails (gnail, betzbone, though rumor is betzbone might be easier to click than gnail) are in the short term more painful than precise, but I am not sure about the long term across the 6 months after the surgery. My clicking pain went from like 2 to 7 pain at first now down to like 0-1 pain after a few weeks, its usually about 0-0.5 pain now for gnail femurs for me. So I feel like in return for a few weeks of clicking pain, the rest of the months are easier compared to precise and my walking seems to be better (due to weight bearing for clicking nails) than the precise femur patient who got the surgery done around the same time as me. But yes clicking in the first weeks or so can be stressful
Next: probably precise femurs because of the femur muscle stretching
Next: hm... I think clicking tibias and precise tibias might almost be a tie, most people seem to say that clicking tibias doesn't hurt that much and in return you also can stand up which seems like less suffering in the long term during your recovery compared to precise tibias. I might be wrong. So I think it's another situation where precise tibias should be short term less pain than clicking tibias technically, but not necessarily by that much
Anyone wanna correct me?
With gnail femurs, the most pain I've ever had is during physio stretching (hamstrings and quads, mostly hamstrings). I described that pain as 8 out of 10 but maybe I should have rated it 10 like the guy above since it was the most physical pain I've ever felt in my life --and so maybe it should have been 10 by definition. The only reason I didn't rate it higher was because I was also hearing the screams of the guy doing externals and assumed my pain is probably less than his. Recently my physio stretching pain at about 1.5-2 months after the surgery has been closer to 6-7 out of 10 pain mostly
Everything I've read on the forums pretty much matches what you've said, thanks for the write up.
Here is a brief description of the 1-10 scale IMO
1-3 pain : Annoying but you can still function on a day to day basis
4-6: Mildly interferes with what you can do on a day to day basis, but not terrible
7-8: Interferes with daily tasks, pain is still bearable but is exhausting and sleep is incredibly difficult.
9+: Torture, you involuntary scream out in pain, traumatizing and unbearable.
When you went through your LL journey, based on this description and your experience, what do you think is the worst pain you've felt during your journey?
Also do you happen to know where most precise 2.2 patients fall on this scale? From me reading multiple diaries, it seems that during the first day or 2 after surgery the pain is between a 6 and a 7 (with pain meds), maybe up to an 8 during physical therapy, and then after that, it goes down to about a 3 and slowly tapers off.
Quote from: stretched on November 20, 2022, 06:46:36 PM
When you went through your LL journey, based on this description and your experience, what do you think is the worst pain you've felt during your journey?
Hamstring and quad stretches during physio with the PT manual stretching. 8 out of 10 pain sometimes. Hip flexor stretches too occasionally 6-7 pain but those feel a bit weirder during physio.
Also do you happen to know where most precise 2.2 patients fall on this scale? From me reading multiple diaries, it seems that during the first day or 2 after surgery the pain is between a 6 and a 7 (with pain meds), maybe up to an 8 during physical therapy, and then after that, it goes down to about a 3 and slowly tapers off.
I know a few precise 2.2 femur patients and I think what you said is completely accurate for precise femurs.
But for the unrelated precise 2.2 tibia, it seems different, it seems like it is much easier pain wise (with some moderate achilles tendon pain) unless you have a complication for tibias. Someone did have a compartment syndrome complication in Athens for tibias recently and from what I heard it was excruciating/much worse pain than physio, like the leg being strangled and all painkillers not doing much. Based on what I've read, compartment syndrome seems to be somewhat more common in tibias than femurs, not sure by how much
above 
my 2 cents here .
I did precise 2.2 , 8/10 pain level out of surgery , was quickly handlered by pain meds .
nail was not fully weight bearing so i stayed in bed or in wheelchair most of time except 4 lengthing sessions and 1 pt every weekday .
minimum to no pain , i was taking less than recommended pain meds . muscle relaxer help a lot with stiffness.
Quote from: LIVELIFETHEWAYIWANT on November 21, 2022, 08:32:54 PMmy 2 cents here .
I did precise 2.2 , 8/10 pain level out of surgery , was quickly handlered by pain meds .
nail was not fully weight bearing so i stayed in bed or in wheelchair most of time except 4 lengthing sessions and 1 pt every weekday .
minimum to no pain , i was taking less than recommended pain meds . muscle relaxer help a lot with stiffness.
Hm... I'm jealous, I didn't get a muscle relaxer in Athens for gnail femurs, I wonder if I should ask about it. Alot of mornings I sort of have to fight against stiffness (sometimes massage gun to wake my muscles up, and then I go to the pedal machine to move a bit to fight the stiffness, it takes some time). Also jealous, I only got PT 4 times a week, not 5
I do feel like with big soft ice pads, pain becomes quite manageable
What was the name of the muscle relaxer they prescribed?
DIAZEPAM
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