it's the obsession
ithere will be always some kind of minor issue with this surgery... it's a given... theres no need to even discuss it
if someone is looking for the perfect way to get this surgery... it becomes tiresome..... theres no perfect way... i honestly dont think theres even a superior way.. they all have pros and cons
anyone who needs to find a way to have the perfect outcome is not going to have this surgery
you have to take the risks involved... there's no mathematical way to analyze this and improve outcome... its very simple
try to be prepared
pick a good dr
have good aftercare
accept reality that it takes time to get recovered
its that simple
How LL (inevitably?) misaligns joints, creates x-legs, and causes joint pain
Quote from: exclide on April 08, 2015, 08:49:36 PMTo be fair, if you assume the misalignment problem is real and it causes long-term knee pain, external femurs would indeed be totally superior. Complications of external femur lengthening are the same as with internal lengthening, plus general complications of external fixation, but nothing specific to external femurs, expect temporary ROM limitations. The main problem of EFL I consider is discomfort. I'm talking about classic Ilizarov frames here, no monorail. But then again the 'misaligment problem' is highly speculative.
There has to be some reason why many highly regarded limb lengthening surgeons prefer internal femurs to external femurs, though, despite the mechanical axis deviation issue present with internals. Even Drs Herzenberg and Paley won't do external femurs for cosmetic reasons, and they did the study about mechanical axis deviation with internal femur nailing: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22933497
I want to e-mail Dr Paley about it but he probably won't go into detail unless I book a consultation with him.
Quote from: KiloKAHN on April 08, 2015, 10:30:00 PMThere has to be some reason why many highly regarded limb lengthening surgeons prefer internal femurs to external femurs, though, despite the mechanical axis deviation issue present with internals. Even Drs Herzenberg and Paley won't do external femurs for cosmetic reasons, and they did the study about mechanical axis deviation with internal femur nailing: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22933497
Thank you very much for that reference. That's a really good way of quantifying it. So for a 7.5 cm internal femur lengthening, you get a 7.5 mm deviation of the axis.
At the risk of further irritating those who think I talk too much,
I'm going to speculate on the question you raise, because I think it's interesting. I think the reasons these reputable surgeons love internal femurs are the following:
1) They are fast
2) They are very reliable and give predictable results
3) Less infection
4) Less nonweightbearing time, which leads to less depression and atrophy
5) Few surgeries required in most cases
6) Less surgeon-dependent "maintenance" than an Ilizarov that requires regular adjustment and monitoring
The "cost" of having a slight misalignment of the mechanical axis is mostly paid by the patient, not the surgeon. The surgeon has already told you there is a risk of arthritis or joint aches, so it is not really his direct problem or liability if a mild genu valgum deformity leads to those mild complications for you over the next few years.
The surgeon's liability is more related to the acute recovery period - contractures, limb deformities, fractures, infections, etc. So from a surgeon's perspective, it makes sense to favor an approach with the most consistent results and fewest short term problems. Even from a patient perspective this may be ideal. Many patients will still probably be happy with internal femurs even if they get mild chronic knee pain because the surgery and recovery can go so relatively smooth, and they got their height without losing a limb.
But for those of us who really want to try to maintain our joint axes in normal alignment, I am thinking the most ideal available option may be tibial LATN. This approach involves lengthening based on an Ilizarov cage, which in the right hands should be able to let you lengthen as in my diagram above, without shifting the axes at all (though margin of error of Ilizarov is unknown to me at this time). Then with the nailing after the lengthening, you get the benefits of early weightbearing and less nonunion. Personally, I also think the long tibia looks better than the long femur, though I know this is subjective and not that important in the scheme of things.
Disadvantage of tibial LATN is primarily it's slower than femoral internals, there's still some total down time, and you have pin infections/risk. Also, I imagine it's more difficult for the surgeon, and requires more skill and monitoring to get a good result, as an Ilizarov can require periodic readjustments to maintain axis. You are at your surgeon's mercy with this approach to get it correct.
Issues with LATN I want to understand better would be: What is the margin of error with the Ilizarov distraction? ie. Can it reliably produce a straight vertical lengthening without significant axis/rotational deviations? Also how well do the talotibial, talofibular, and tibiofibular (ie. ankle) joints typically function after tibial LATN?
A femoral LATN would be another option but most seem to avoid Ilizarov cages on the upper leg due to how cumbersome they become and difficulties with moving around, wheelchairs, etc in them.
Then after a perfectly done tibial LATN, a tibial internal nail like Precise 2 or Guichet would provide potentially the next least amount of mechanical misalignment.
I have emailed a handful of lengthening doctors about this a few minutes ago. Mainly just asking if there are any permanent complications of external femurs or LON/LATN femurs with monorail. If there are not aside from more pain and more physical therapy required then I think I might opt for external femurs anyway. Bluebarbie is doing it and I hope she makes a good recovery.
Quote from: Sean Connery on April 09, 2015, 12:52:26 AMI have emailed a handful of lengthening doctors about this a few minutes ago. Mainly just asking if there are any permanent complications of external femurs or LON/LATN femurs with monorail. If there are not aside from more pain and more physical therapy required then I think I might opt for external femurs anyway. Bluebarbie is doing it and I hope she makes a good recovery.
Cool. Thanks Sean. From what I understand of the procedure, LON will cause the same axis deviation as internal nails, since again, you will be lengthening purely along the tilted axis of the bone, and not in a straight up and down plain as I think is more desirable to maintain joint alignment. Not sure about monorail.
Bottom line I'm thinking for me at this point:
- Internal femurs: Predictable and safe but they guarantee axis deviation (which may or may not be a problem for each person).
- Internal tibias: Theoretically would offer less axis deviation than internal femursand also likely be safe but no one is doing these because they're slow and more complicated to administer than internal femurs (adds complexity of patella, fibula, ankle).
- LATN tibias: Not as predictable or as safe as internals and again brings in the patella, fibula, ankle complexity, but has the potential if done well for perfect post op joint alignment.
- LATN femurs: No one seems to really want to touch these, but they might be best of all for the joints if they can be done safely and well, since you can theoretically maintain the axis perfectly, and it avoids the ankle, patella, and fibula. Any significant error in axis, rotation, or angulation to the femur is going to be a real problem though so precision is key.
Well Dr Singh in Singapore is doing LATN femurs for Bluebarbie so perhaps they aren't so dangerous. And he's letting her go to 7 cm. If she has a good result it will make me confident enough to go that route.
I think doing LATN femurs gives you crooked femur bones though.
Quote from: Sean Connery on April 09, 2015, 01:10:36 AMWell Dr Singh in Singapore is doing LATN femurs for Bluebarbie so perhaps they aren't so dangerous. And he's letting her go to 7 cm. If she has a good result it will make me confident enough to go that route.
I think doing LATN femurs gives you crooked femur bones though.
Crooked would be fine if it's the right kind of crooked. This is how I imagine it should be (exaggerated of course). In real life the distortion would be more subtle, so they should still be able to put a nail down it to fix it once positioned. 
Knee pain is a very real risk when doing internal tibias.
I'll have to post pictures in my diary at some point....but I don't have x-legs when I stand with my feet apart after internal femurs. However, I think for me this is due to my having genu varum (bow legs) before LL, which LL indirectly improved (in my case). My knees are closer together, yes, but when I stand with feet apart, I don't have x-legs the way Shy seems to a bit.
Quote from: KiloKAHN on April 08, 2015, 10:30:00 PMEven Drs Herzenberg and Paley won't do external femurs for cosmetic reasons, and they did the study about mechanical axis deviation with internal femur nailing: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22933497
I want to e-mail Dr Paley about it but he probably won't go into detail unless I book a consultation with him.
Hi Kilokahn,
I e-mailed Dr. Paley a few hours ago asking about the safety of doing LATN femurs and linked him to the study you posted about mechanical axis deviation. I just got a reply from him.
E-mail sent to me by Dr. Paley. Those concerned about this issue should read below.
This is the response I received from Dr. Dror Paley:
"The methods of combining ex fix and internal fixation were developed by me. I used to use these methods. I no longer use these for cosmetic lengthening. The results with Precice are second to none and the issue of axial deviation over a nail is a non issue despite my publication. We have a new publication that will come out in Sept that will lay that issue to rest. If I were doing this procedure today I would NEVER consider using an ex fix. I would only do it with the newest, SAFEST, and fastest method for efficacy and recovery. That method right now is the Precice. We use the P2.1 which is the newest model. I would recommend that if you are serious about this come in for a consultation and also read the attached material."
I can attach a screenshot of the e-mail if you guys need proof.
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