I think some individuals should think very hard about what they are planning to do on this forum. There is a lot of hate circulating and people are suggesting going to extreme lengths (threats of violence, national news, posting personal information, etc...) How is any of this beneficial to any of us as potential leg lengthening patients?
I am keeping neutral in all of this as much as possible but I feel as a forum LL Forum is getting off on the wrong foot big time. Whatever has happened on old forum it is still the biggest site on the net for information about LL. There are thousands of posts from thousands of users. If SysOp pulls the plug we all lose that. If this gets on national news because some nut job attacks SysOp or reports the old forum site, you can bet this new forum will be dragged through the mud as a result and we will all look like delusional psychotics.
Currently of the 15 or so posts on this forum 6 are bitch fests about old forum or its members. Who gives a ? Just roll it into one thread and let the rest of the forum grow into the knowledge base it should be. Seeing the users act like complete children does not look good at all. There isn't even a single completed diary on here yet.
LL Forum has about 8 years to catch up on old forum , this can be done by structuring the site in such as a way as to provide excellent LL knowledge through decent research and doctor consultations backed up by patient diaries one by one as members do the surgery.
It is very hard to take this forum seriously in it's present state.
REMEMBER THIS.
If old forum goes because some individuals are butt hurt. We lose perhaps one of the most important sources of information about LL on the internet. Love or Hate SysOp there are well over a hundred diaries on old forum , good and bad. With just about every possible scenario discussed with advice from veterans and patients given in response.
There are thousands of threads discussing new, old and potential Dr's.
There are hundreds of questions and discussions about LL and matters surrounding it.
Right now, to be blunt, this forum has .
I can't be the only one to be gutted if old forum goes down and all we have left for help and advice is this place?
Seriously guys. Sort it out.
Quote from: short_and_depressed on September 27, 2013, 07:07:00 PMWhat about all the people who google "limb lengthening", end up in old forum , believe it, and go to those doctors? What about the complications they might face?
Tell me right now what is the alternative?
Short support? With links to some of the worst doctors you could possibly do the surgery with?
Or this place, where the majority of people are irate that some other site may or may not be prejudice and the actual information about Leg Lengthening amounts to about 5 posts and the majority of the members have not even had LL yet?
Are you so blind as to not see the value of all the information on old forum ? Despite the drama it is unrivaled for information.
Quote from: Snivy on September 27, 2013, 07:18:54 PMNice try Apo/Sys
Just no.
Quote from: kinglee on September 27, 2013, 07:23:27 PMhahaha.....i think you are sysop
You are free to think that.
Quote from: short_and_depressed on September 27, 2013, 08:34:30 PMWhat use is a board that shows distorted information? I mean if LL in *reality* has 70% cases of complications think of how many people would just back out? My only (and many others') source of info about LL is old forum . I had believed everything it had said till now. But if it is just trying to show "merry" stories in hope of "pushing" LL, what is the use?
The admin *edits* posts like he wants and posts as other people. Seriously.
About losing information, what have you to say about saving the site for offline viewing?
Read above, how the hell do you do that and still keep it actually usable? I.e Search by keyword, by user post, by date, etc?
I could screen shot every page but if you can search than of what use is it? How will you look anything up?
Or I could copy and paste every post myself, and then re-up it all which would take an ice age.
Or alternatively, we simply just leave it there and make an alternative community as strong as possible.
Quote from: Snivy on September 27, 2013, 08:42:49 PMQuote from: short_and_depressed on September 27, 2013, 08:34:30 PMWhat use is a board that shows distorted information? I mean if LL in *reality* has 70% cases of complications think of how many people would just back out? My only (and many others') source of info about LL is old forum . I had believed everything it had said till now. But if it is just trying to show "merry" stories in hope of "pushing" LL, what is the use?
The admin *edits* posts like he wants and posts as other people. Seriously.
About losing information, what have you to say about saving the site for offline viewing?
Well to be fair, you have all the posts before that good for nothing piece of took over.
Exactly. And many of the posts are still valid. No one has edited any of my posts where I have discussed research.
Editing has taken place. I'm never gonna argue counter to that. But there is still plenty of useful information on the site. Thank you for actually seeing it's worth. Felt like I was alone for a moment there!
Quote from: Dameon on September 27, 2013, 08:58:14 PMQuote from: An_Apple_A_Day on September 27, 2013, 06:44:05 PMI think you should think very hard about what some users are planning to do on this forum. There is a lot of hate circulating and people are suggesting going to extreme lengths (threats of violence, national news, posting personal information, etc...) How is any of this beneficial to any of us as potential leg lengthening patients?
I am keeping neutral in all of this as much as possible but I feel as a forum LL Forum is getting off on the wrong foot big time. Whatever has happened on old forum it is still the biggest site on the net for information about LL. There are thousands of posts from thousands of users. If SysOp pulls the plug we all lose that. If this gets on national news because some nut job attacks SysOp or reports the old forum site, WE ALL GET HARMED. Plus you can bet this new forum will be dragged through the mud as a result and we will all look like delusional psychotics.
Currently of the 15 or so posts on this forum 6 are bitch fests about old forum or the members. Who gives a ? Just roll it into one thread and let the rest of the forum grow into the knowledge base it should be. Seeing the users act like complete children does not look good at all. There isn't even a single completed diary on here yet.
LL Forum has about 8 years to catch up on, this can be done by structuring the site in such as a way as to provide excellent LL knowledge through decent research and doctor consultations backed up by patient diaries one by one as members do the surgery.
It is very hard to take this forum seriously in it's present state.
Well my opinion is that alot of the negative emotions are understandable, considering what was exposed about Make Me Taller's owner, his actions and agenda. It's natural that people are upset or angry when they felt lied to, considering all the money and risks involved in the surgery.
It's entirely their own decisions if they wish to take action via legal or media outlets. Also don't take everything you read literally on the internet when it comes to promise of violence.
Do I feel Apotheosis should be accountable? Yes, it's a matter of principle and the bigger picture. If more people are aware that there are potential traps in LL industry, then it helps them too.
I'm sorry but you can't convince me on that it is the right thing to keep quiet when something borderline criminal is going on, with people's well-being at risk. Patients are being sent to unqualified doctor because of fake diary with glowing review, just because there's financial reasons to do so.
I think there will be people who love or hate this forum, it's their own choice who to contribute to. I think it's a big pity that Apotheosis has abused all of the trust and credibility built up for his own selfish agenda.
I suppose you meant "ALL GET HARMED" as in more people will be exposed to LL right? Well, Apotheosis already done that with his national interviews. There's no denying that LL is getting more mainstream, you can find reports about it on alot of news outlets.
There are already people archiving old forum since Apotheosis is deleting stuff regularly, I also have confidence that the knowledge and contribution of this community will help patients choose a safe doctor and understand what they are going through.
I think the forum is doing fine, maybe it's too early to write us off after one week?
There's no way we will have diaries all over the place right away, it takes time. Some people were even skeptical about what we actually meant at first. New people are joining and slowly information related to Limb Lengthening is building up.
None of us are being paid to do this full time as a job, so it's a very organic kind of development driven by members. I don't really wish to censor things here, as this is a community driven forum. People can make up their own minds about what they agree or disagree on.
Thank you for the eloquent and well thought out response. I agree with your principles for the most part, and commend your objective approach to discussion. This is what the forum needs.
Yes people will be upset. But you cannot argue that some of the things being posted were taking things too far. In my country at least (the UK) people have been jailed for saying such things online.
By all gets harmed I was referring to extra exposure with NEGATIVE connotations attached. I am aware of SysOp and the 20-20 news broadcast and I was part of the thread that voiced dissatisfaction toward the article. I found out about LL through research. I feel that alone should be one of the qualifying criteria for the surgery. It didn't take me more than a hour or so of Googling about being short to find it, so anyone seriously unhappy about their height should have little problem too. By exposing the corruption to people who have no interest in LL (the general public) all it will do is further compound the stigma attached to the surgery and short men in general (you can view these on any of the LL news stories with a comments section).
In terms of archiving I can't help but feel this is contradictory. People have been saying in this and other threads old forum cannot be trusted yet they are either advising me to archive the site myself or as you have said here people are already doing it. If LL Forum believe old forum to be so biased why are archives being recommended and carried out? From a technical stand point how can this be functional? So far all I have seen is screen grabs which cannot be index or searched.
I am not writing you off, in fact in all of my posts including my very first ones I said it is always good to have alternatives to everything. Even medical professionals advise second opinions. My concerns however is the level of hate the forum is currently harboring. In no way can this be productive.
I understand the organic development and once more commend your initiative on setting up this forum. In regards to prosecuting Apo/SysOp there is no place on old forum where the risks and problems of LL are concealed. I learnt about all the that can happen solely through that site. You might be able to sure the doctor who butchered you, but I doubt very much you could get anything to stick simply because multiple people (Not just Sys) recommend a doctor.
Quote from: short_and_depressed on September 27, 2013, 09:50:01 PMQuote from: An_Apple_A_Day on September 27, 2013, 08:56:27 PMRead above, how the hell do you do that and still keep it actually usable? I.e Search by keyword, by user post, by date, etc?
I could screen shot every page but if you can search than of what use is it? How will you look anything up?
Or I could copy and paste every post myself, and then re-up it all which would take an ice age.
Or alternatively, we simply just leave it there and make an alternative community as strong as possible.
If you had googled something along the lines of "how to download a website for offline viewing" you would have found far better alternatives than taking screenshots.
It isn't a website though, it is a forum. As far as I am aware it would be very difficult to do. Please enlighten me with any methods you discover however.
That still does not address the point that people on here are making that old forum cannot be trusted though? This place seems to contradict itself a lot!
Quote from: short_and_depressed on September 27, 2013, 10:03:39 PMContradict? How exactly?
Most people here are saying the earlier info was genuine but the new stuff isn't and the stuff that is to come will not be.
I'm just worried if LL itself isn't as successful a surgery as the website claims. Like I wrote earlier, if the truth is that only 70% of LL is successful, and old forum has hidden the failed ones, then we've been largely mislead. I'm sure many people wouldn't have even looked at LL in the 1st place if that were the case.
I share your concerns and feel like the rug has been pulled from beneath my feet. I was geared up to have the surgery next summer, but now I am currently out of options for LL and continue to seek solutions.
The lack of completed diaries regardless of the outcome being successful or not has always been a concern for me.
What doctor/doctors did you have in mind?
Quote from: Kilokahn on September 27, 2013, 11:54:55 PMIf Sysop were running a business, he would not be fully compliant with business regulations. Sysop acts as an affiliate in many ways in that he is advertising products/surgeons and getting a cut of their profit. That must be disclosed in affiliate marketing. If an affiliate receives commission from selling another person's or business's products, that affiliate has to reveal this on his website in some form. That's why they have affiliate policies which show and describe the relationship between the affiliate (the one endorsing another company's products) and the company/business being endorsed by the affiliate. I do affiliate marketing myself - not for LLing - and you can be held legally liable for false statements through endorsement of other products due to truth in advertising laws. Now I'm not sure how this would apply to old forum , as I'm not sure it falls under an actual business, but if someone were to go after Sysop legally I wouldn't be surprised if he were found guilty of fraud.
Legal accountability would certainly make our lives easier in terms of being able to trust the recommendations to a greater degree. However I think in practice it would be incredibly complicated.
Consider Dr Salameh. If I were to get surgery with him:
1. I live in UK
2. SysOp is American
3. Dr Salameh is from Syria
4. Surgery carried out in Germany
5. old forum Servers are God knows where
Which jurisdiction does one take legal action with if complications arise? It is a legal nightmare!
DISCLAIMER: By all account Dr Salameh is a fine surgeon. I am simply using him for an example to consider.
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