Quote from: extremis Lengthening "sensibly" has nothing to do with developing complications or not, and neither does picking a good doctor.
Maybe it does. It's just that no one does it. LAGrowin just recently mentioned only really feeling tightness after 3cm. However, no one pays tens of thousands of dollars just for 3cm.
Also, even Alsberg's research doesn't seem like it could solve the soft tissue issue, or does it?
Quote from: extremis on February 24, 2018, 09:00:44 PM
1.) "Harald Oberlaender" is, in all likelihood, a scammer trying to con people into sending his private "organization" (don't remember the name) money. I'm not asking anyone to send me a thing. MAYBE if the community of short-statured people who want to be taller grows enough, we could all use one of various third-party crowdfunding systems in place to send funds to researchers. This would help things along, but wouldn't be absolutely necessary. Balding is researched very often because researchers know that if a safe, effective solution is available, people will pay for one.
2.) The research has already "taken off", and it was without the short community saying anything about it, so I guess you're half right?
3.) You "lol" at everything I have to say, because you're angry at me for rejecting and publicly debunking your feel-good positivist delusion posts. I understand. It's hard to face reality. But attacking me doesn't change anything.
Lmao take it easy there Galileo you didn't "debunk" anything, I just have a different view of life than you do. I lol at everything you say because you have this really distorted perspective. You are on an LL forum trying to combince people not to do LL and spend their time and energy on this alternative. It funny because you go on these long passionate rants and you get nowhere. You just sound like a really really bitter person so it's hard to take you seriously
Quote from: myloginacct on February 24, 2018, 09:52:03 PMMaybe it does. It's just that no one does it. LAGrowin just recently mentioned only really feeling tightness after 3cm. However, no one pays tens of thousands of dollars just for 3cm.
Scientifically speaking, I don't see why it would. None of the scientific literature behind LL suggests that there's some magic "small enough" number such that significant soft tissue damage does not occur as a result of distraction osteogenesis. A distended tendon/muscle body is distended and that's that. Whether the distension is 3 cm, 5 cm, 8 cm or 10 cm, unnaturally stretching bone tissue by force results in damage to soft tissue.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12394466
QuoteWhen distraction osteogenesis (at < or = 1.4 mm/day) is done in skeletally immature animals, muscle adapts by creating a longer and functionally intact muscle. This is achieved through muscle growth, the proliferation of myogenic cells ultimately leading to serial addition of sarcomeres. When distraction osteogenesis is done in skeletally mature animals, however, the same distraction regimen leads to a lengthened muscle that has significant fibrosis and weakness, the latter possibly a result of partial denervation. Despite a modest but significant elevation of local insulinlike growth factor-1 in the lengthened muscles from adult animals, muscle growth is not adequate and leads to a loss of function.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18973235
QuoteThe anatomical location (gastrocnemius, peroneus tertius, and first flexor digitorum longus muscle), dimension and occurrence of muscular defects were characterized histologically. The callus formation and leg axis was monitored by weekly X-rays. Additionally, serum creatine kinase was analyzed during a distraction and consolidation period. Significant signs of muscle lesions in all three observed muscles can be found postoperatively, whereas normal callus formation and regular leg axis was observed radiologically. The peroneus tertius and first flexor digitorum longus muscles were found to have significantly more signs of fibrosis, inflammatory, and necrosis.
Quote from: myloginacct on February 24, 2018, 10:26:24 PMAlso, even Alsberg's research doesn't seem like it could solve the soft tissue issue, or does it?
Referring to the second study above, this sentence:
QuoteWhen distraction osteogenesis (at < or = 1.4 mm/day) is done in skeletally immature animals, muscle adapts by creating a longer and functionally intact muscle. This is achieved through muscle growth, the proliferation of myogenic cells ultimately leading to serial addition of sarcomeres.
Leads me to believe that either Teplyashin's or Alsberg's research very well might solve the problem. If "Skeletally immature" in this case refers to bone maturity (and it should, given the context of the sentence), i.e. the presence (or lack) of epiphyseal cartilage and the occurrence of mesenchymal stem cell differentiation into chondrocytes, which then proliferate towardd the epiphyseal line. "Skeletally immature animals" are those with a bone age corresponding to existing epiphyseal cartilage and ongoing longitudinal bone growth.
In that case, there's no reason why implanting new epiphyseal cartilage wouldn't work the same way - the new cartilage could be manipulated through chemical or mechanical means to yield new growth that would be functionally identical to the growth that occurs naturally during human development ("growth spurts" in puberty).
Quote from: Zeo on February 25, 2018, 12:46:12 AMLmao take it easy there Galileo you didn't "debunk" anything,
When I offer cogent, cohesive and scientifically substantiated arguments and you respond with ad hominems and other offhand dismissals based on personal incredulity or bias with absolutely no logical or scientific substantiation, I call that "debunking". And in that respect, I've most certainly debunked the things you've said.
Quote I just have a different view of life than you do. I lol at everything you say because you have this really distorted perspective.
"I lol at everything you say because your view of life is different, which means your perspective is distorted, because everyone and anyone who disagrees with me is obviously wrong"
Could you be any more of a solipsistic narcissist? Lmao. Pathetic.
QuoteYou are on an LL forum trying to combince people not to do LL and spend their time and energy on this alternative. It funny because you go on these long passionate rants and you get nowhere. You just sound like a really really bitter person so it's hard to take you seriously
I'm not trying to "combince" anyone to not do LL. I'm trying to encourage the community to work together to support research into new surgeries/methods for height increase, many of which already exist and are in progress (as I've shown in this thread).
What's really "funny" is how you insist on attacking me because I refuse to capitulate to your ideology and yet somehow come to the conclusion that I'm the one who's "really really bitter". I honestly don't care whether you take me seriously or not. I can tell you that when it comes to you, it isn't "hard" to take you seriously because I don't even try to take you seriously at all. You have absolutely nothing of scientific, intellectual or even philosophical rigor to offer beyond delusional positivism and petulant, immature temper tantrums when people refuse to agree with you. You're basically a passive-aggressive version of the user BruceWayne.
Quote from: extremis on February 24, 2018, 09:00:44 PMhttp://grantome.com/grant/NIH/R21-AR061265-02
Funded by the National Institute of Health (NIS) and National Institute of Arthritis and Musculoskeletal and Skin Diseases (NIAMS). This is the project where he successfully replicated epiphyseal cartilage. Funding wasn't renewed past the 2-year mark, most likely due to your keen observation that the implantation may prove too unpredictable to be considered "safe". However, Dr. Alsberg and his team have been working on precisely that by studying means by which to control stem cell differentiation through novel pathways, as well as testing other methods for chondrocyte generation through mesenchymal stem cells:
http://engineering.case.edu/ebme/alsberg/publications
Just a few excerpts from his publications last year (and his first one this year):
Agreed.
50 years is, again, WAY too conservative. Even if we assume the technology isn't available within the next 10 years, advanced computer systems (sophisticated AIs, data mining algorithms, etc) will be here within 20 for sure. These are already used in research and studies in the fields of Neurology and Cancer research. They speed up discoveries of new techniques for treating diseases by an astounding amount.
This thing you're talking about where the technology is used to increase the length of every bone in your body to make you perfectly proportional is more likely MUCH farther away, yes. But most people on this forum, and I'm willing to bet most short men in general, would be willing to sacrifice proportionality to some extent if it meant increasing their stature.
This isn't PSL (I feel like you're from there). Most people here aren't obsessed with being male models with 25 inch bideltoids or whatever neurotic bullshyt. For most of the short statured male community, longer legs are more than enough to solve their problem (hence traditional leg-lengthening surgery). In some of the more extreme cases (< 5'4"), MAYBE arm lengthening and a small amount of interspinal disk height increase.
I absolutely agree that they're delusional and most likely would never be interested in helping, but Reddit's r/short doesn't comprise "90%" of the short-statured male community in the least. That board is made up of maybe 50 "regulars" (like the user 5ft4mike) who spend the whole day circlejerking and pretending to be "alpha".
1.) "Harald Oberlaender" is, in all likelihood, a scammer trying to con people into sending his private "organization" (don't remember the name) money. I'm not asking anyone to send me a thing. MAYBE if the community of short-statured people who want to be taller grows enough, we could all use one of various third-party crowdfunding systems in place to send funds to researchers. This would help things along, but wouldn't be absolutely necessary. Balding is researched very often because researchers know that if a safe, effective solution is available, people will pay for one.
2.) The research has already "taken off", and it was without the short community saying anything about it, so I guess you're half right?
3.) You "lol" at everything I have to say, because you're angry at me for rejecting and publicly debunking your feel-good positivist delusion posts. I understand. It's hard to face reality. But attacking me doesn't change anything.
For some people, losing "some athletic abilities" isn't acceptable or worth it. For others, the risk of "big complications" isn't acceptable or worth it. Lengthening "sensibly" has nothing to do with developing complications or not, and neither does picking a good doctor.
Nobody wants to end up like Unicorn or other posters who ruined their lives with LL. A lot of people risk LL because they have no other hope or means of escaping short stature.
It's not by "getting some pills". Please don't belittle or trivialize the research if you haven't read and don't understand it.
It's absolutely comical that you think this type of genetic engineering is close but basic stem cell tissue engineering is "veey distant" [sic]. Molecular biology clearly isn't your field of expertise.
It's a little bit suspicious how hard you're trying to discourage people from seeking alternatives to distraction osteogenesis. I feel like this has less to do with you believing a better solution won't come about "in our lifetimes" and more to do with the fact you've already taken the risks and hampered your physical abilities by doing LL and you don't want anyone else to be able to get a treatment that doesn't do that, i.e. "if I can't have it, no one can" syndrome.
Of course having a good outcome has a lot to do with the doctor you pick up.
If Unicorn didn't have a bad bone breaking (as with all Guichet patients) and didn't lengthen 2mm per day (as Guichet told her) she wouldn't suffer non union.
If the doctor does a good cut and the patient lengthens sensibly at a low rate, the only complication of LL is infection which in 99% of cases could be easily treated by oral antibiotics.
Yes, the biomechanical changes cause you a loss of athletic abilities but thats it.
If you think that with a magic solution (gene therapy or anything) you'll have the height you want and your body will easily adapt to that then again you are delusional.
After all, if anyone could have easily and with no problems the height he wants then everyone, even the tall ones will want to get taller so as to still be taller than the others. So what will be the new average, 8 feet?
All these are insane.
And your last paragraph is completely crap.
If I didn'r believe in LL I wouldn't plan to do another one in the next 2 years, especially when my first LL harmed my athletic abilities as you said (and it is true in some degree).
But I truly believe there won't be any other choice for the next many years so thats why I am fully determined about another one LL and I am completely ok with that.
If you want to wait and become taller by taking some pills or injecting something that will make you 6.2 or something then it is your choice.
For me this is completely delusional and I don't have time to lose so I plan another one LL, that time with stryde which is the best solution that anyone who wants to get taller can use, for the many next years, at least imo.
Quote from: Body Builder on February 25, 2018, 03:20:24 AMOf course having a good outcome has a lot to do with the doctor you pick up.
If Unicorn didn't have a bad bone breaking (as with all Guichet patients) and didn't lengthen 2mm per day (as Guichet told her) she wouldn't suffer non union.
You couldn't possibly know this. There's no possible way to prove it. Guichet is hardly a back-alley doctor like some of the cheaper options in 3rd world countries, he's had plenty of successful patients. Even Paley, the most expensive option that's located in probably the most medically advanced country (U.S.) has had multiple complications in the past:
http://www.limblengtheningforum.com/index.php?topic=4122.0
http://www.sun-sentinel.com/local/palm-beach/fl-doctor-dror-paley-20160318-story.html
There was also that one patient (ProgramDude?) who had his tibia (or femur, don't recall which) snap while he was walking in the mall, pretty sure he did his surgery with Paley.
Every doctor has success and failure stories, and while surgeon skill does play a part in how many of each a doctor has, at the end of the day the biggest factor deciding how your surgery/recovery will go is just plain dumb luck. Even among other invasive procedures, distraction osteogenesis is a gruesome, crude surgery where a ton of things can go wrong at any point in the process (surgery, hospital stay, consolidation, recuperation). Trying to portray it as this super-safe procedure where things only go wrong if you pick the "wrong" surgeon is just silly.
If the doctor does a good cut and the patient lengthens sensibly at a low rate, the only complication of LL is infection which in 99% of cases could be easily treated by oral antibiotics.
QuoteYes, the biomechanical changes cause you a loss of athletic abilities but thats it.
That's a massive price to pay for a lot of people, and one that shouldn't be necessary to pay, which is the whole point of trying to develop alternative solutions.
QuoteIf you think that with a magic solution (gene therapy or anything) you'll have the height you want and your body will easily adapt to that then again you are delusional.
After all, if anyone could have easily and with no problems the height he wants then everyone, even the tall ones will want to get taller so as to still be taller than the others. So what will be the new average, 8 feet?
All these are insane.
This is a common assertion by people who argue against limb lengthening in general (in your case, you're just arguing against potential replacements for distraction osteogenesis). My answer is the same: this is false. The average will not be "8 feet" if an alternative technique for height increase is developed, no matter how easy, non-invasive, cheap or accessible the procedure is.
The reason why is that there's a limit to how large the human form can become without suffering severe biomechanical problems resulting in massive drops in quality of life.
https://futurism.com/videos/watch-how-big-can-a-person-get/
The ceiling for average human height is in fact more or less what it is in the tallest countries (Netherlands, Dinaric Alps, etc) right now: the range from 6'1" to 6'4". People who are 7 feet tall and above (i.e. acromegaly patients and so on) generally suffer from massive orthopedic problems (knees especially) and die very young (<40 years old). That's not a coincidence. The human body isn't designed to get that big.
PERHAPS if the surgery was cheap and effective enough that everyone on earth could get it, all that would happen is everyone would be the same height (or very close to it). Since this would mean the end of height-based discrimination (if everyone's "tall", then no one is), that shouldn't be a problem for any short person.
QuoteAnd your last paragraph is completely crap.
If I didn'r believe in LL I wouldn't plan to do another one in the next 2 years, especially when my first LL harmed my athletic abilities as you said (and it is true in some degree).
But I truly believe there won't be any other choice for the next many years so thats why I am fully determined about another one LL and I am completely ok with that.
If you want to wait and become taller by taking some pills or injecting something that will make you 6.2 or something then it is your choice.
For me this is completely delusional and I don't have time to lose so I plan another one LL, that time with stryde which is the best solution that anyone who wants to get taller can use, for the many next years, at least imo.
Now you're being more intellectually honest. I don't know whether or not you're telling the truth and you really don't just want to keep people from supporting the development of better solutions, and I frankly don't care. Your life is yours to live as you see fit. So is everyone else's.
What I'm trying to do is demonstrate that it is not "delusional" to believe a safer, superior, non-athletically crippling alternative for height increase will become available LONG before the absolutely outlandish timeframes given by some users here (your 20 years and the 50 (!!!) cited by others). I've used both reasoning and scientific evidence to back this (as I've shown in this thread, research is already ongoing, technologies relevant to the procedures are advancing literally by the day) because I know that basing claims purely on one's own opinions and beliefs is neither convincing nor (in the majority of cases) accurate.
Lol you can't debunk a personal preference on how somebody prefers to live their life. And good job twisting my words. Nobody is "attacking" you for not following an "ideology". A lot of people here don't agree with one another and so we all tend to just agree to disagree. With you it's just funny to see you go on one of your 8 paragraph autistic rants when somebody disagrees with you. I'm not trying to convince you of anything, you're stuck in your ways. You seem to be a person that going to find a way to be miserable no matter what. You get your panties all bunched up over nothing. It's more sad than anything.
And lol at you "encouraging" the community to work together. If that was your goal you did a piss poor job.
So write another 8 paragraph rant and "encourage" the community to work together some more. It's working great so far.
Quote from: extremis on February 25, 2018, 04:29:09 AMYou couldn't possibly know this. There's no possible way to prove it. Guichet is hardly a back-alley doctor like some of the cheaper options in 3rd world countries, he's had plenty of successful patients. Even Paley, the most expensive option that's located in probably the most medically advanced country (U.S.) has had multiple complications in the past:
http://www.limblengtheningforum.com/index.php?topic=4122.0
http://www.sun-sentinel.com/local/palm-beach/fl-doctor-dror-paley-20160318-story.html
There was also that one patient (ProgramDude?) who had his tibia (or femur, don't recall which) snap while he was walking in the mall, pretty sure he did his surgery with Paley.
Every doctor has success and failure stories, and while surgeon skill does play a part in how many of each a doctor has, at the end of the day the biggest factor deciding how your surgery/recovery will go is just plain dumb luck. Even among other invasive procedures, distraction osteogenesis is a gruesome, crude surgery where a ton of things can go wrong at any point in the process (surgery, hospital stay, consolidation, recuperation). Trying to portray it as this super-safe procedure where things only go wrong if you pick the "wrong" surgeon is just silly.
If the doctor does a good cut and the patient lengthens sensibly at a low rate, the only complication of LL is infection which in 99% of cases could be easily treated by oral antibiotics.
That's a massive price to pay for a lot of people, and one that shouldn't be necessary to pay, which is the whole point of trying to develop alternative solutions.
This is a common assertion by people who argue against limb lengthening in general (in your case, you're just arguing against potential replacements for distraction osteogenesis). My answer is the same: this is false. The average will not be "8 feet" if an alternative technique for height increase is developed, no matter how easy, non-invasive, cheap or accessible the procedure is.
The reason why is that there's a limit to how large the human form can become without suffering severe biomechanical problems resulting in massive drops in quality of life.
https://futurism.com/videos/watch-how-big-can-a-person-get/
The ceiling for average human height is in fact more or less what it is in the tallest countries (Netherlands, Dinaric Alps, etc) right now: the range from 6'1" to 6'4". People who are 7 feet tall and above (i.e. acromegaly patients and so on) generally suffer from massive orthopedic problems (knees especially) and die very young (<40 years old). That's not a coincidence. The human body isn't designed to get that big.
PERHAPS if the surgery was cheap and effective enough that everyone on earth could get it, all that would happen is everyone would be the same height (or very close to it). Since this would mean the end of height-based discrimination (if everyone's "tall", then no one is), that shouldn't be a problem for any short person.
Now you're being more intellectually honest. I don't know whether or not you're telling the truth and you really don't just want to keep people from supporting the development of better solutions, and I frankly don't care. Your life is yours to live as you see fit. So is everyone else's.
What I'm trying to do is demonstrate that it is not "delusional" to believe a safer, superior, non-athletically crippling alternative for height increase will become available LONG before the absolutely outlandish timeframes given by some users here (your 20 years and the 50 (!!!) cited by others). I've used both reasoning and scientific evidence to back this (as I've shown in this thread, research is already ongoing, technologies relevant to the procedures are advancing literally by the day) because I know that basing claims purely on one's own opinions and beliefs is neither convincing nor (in the majority of cases) accurate.
Extremis you seem like a clever poster.
But you are inexperienced about LL. You have it on your mind like something barbaric that could easily cripple you and will make you walk like an old man.
All these are false. With LL, if you have a good doctor and lengthen sensibly and slow, everything is manageable. Snaping a bone (although very rare) does not mean that this bone won't consolidate again. Malunion can be treated (I had one in my right tibia and after a second surgery it is 100% straight), even non unions are treatable most if the times. So if a surgeon does not cripple you by damaging nerves then everything can be fixed, except from madsive lengthening that can't be adapted from body's biomechanics. But this something that a patient should know and decide where to stop.
Personally I lengthened 3 inches on tibias which is a lot but if I didn't have the problems with my atl (and I still rehabilitate from my at shortening surgery done 9 months ago) I am sure that the difference compared to my pre LL condition would be non visible in my everyday life.
So LL is a good solution for someone who does not want to wait for a medical revolution as the one you described. People do LL since 1960 and no other solution was invented for geting taller. If you think that we are close to something so big like make a grown adult taller (which is very very complicated and will have many applications like make someone younger or creating bionic body members and all these that have to do with new genes) then you can wait. I read a lot of medical news, I haven't met anything like that being close to start being used to people.
And I don't know your age but I am 29 and I want to become taller up my 32 years so as to still be young to benefit from being taller.
If you are 18 yo yes, you can wait 6-7 years and see but for me there is no other choice than LL.
And trust me, with an internal stable weight bearing magnetic nail I don't want anything else to have a successful LL.
I don't think that any major improvement on geting taller will be out for the next 20-30 years but if you think otherwise you can wait. We'll see who will be right even if we won't discuss it here. 
Everyone can read about Alexander Teplyashin work at http://stemcellrussia.com/ru_companies
I read that they already tried regrowing a working hyaline growth plate and implanted back into volunteer human patient, however no reference or scientific proof.
As for now, I think teplyashin is focussing on treatment of arthritis with stem cells, nonetheless, I see multiple news threads of his laboratory staff on bioengineering human body's cells in lots of areas - muscle, hear, eyes etc.
Of course, it won't be used commercially in the medium term for sure, however Chinese already combined stem cells with LL and it reduced consolidation time I think around 23 days per cm.
Lastly, stem cells technologies were banned in the US on Obama presidency years and only developing and frontier countries were performing research in this field, I hope now when regulations were lessened in developed markets, research funding will surge. Especially when there's a niche in this market, with enormous profit potential in cosmetic lenghtening.
Bodybuilder,the one doesn't exclude the other
Supporting the research with a small ammount of money doesn't exclude the possibility of doing leg lengthening
Leg lengthening is the present,not the future
This is a serious surgery,don't try to to make seem it too easy
If something goes wrong and there are good chances,you are done.Crippled or worse.End of the story
This can happen to anyone of us,no matter of which doctor.If you are unlucky or your body doesn't handle it,you can face serious complications that can ruin your life.
There are too many unpredictable factors.That's why this surgery will never be the future.
You were lucky on your tibias.But keep in mind that you can still be crippled doing your femurs.
Besides doing LL,our only hope is to become a real community and supporting alternatives:donating for a small shiny hope instead of buying a pack of cigarettes
If all had your attitude ,we would be still sleeping in caves
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