Quote from: WannaBeTaller-Official on August 23, 2023, 09:01:41 AMAs for your question, is it provided with a new doctor for the treatment of complications when the doctor changes? Doctors in Turkey are always cautious about dealing with another doctor's patient, but this is not a fixed behavior or rule. Therefore, even if the patient's own doctor has terminated the contract with the company, the patient can receive service from the company's new doctor. However, it should not be forgotten that his own doctor has a legal responsibility towards him regarding the problem he has experienced. Because in the agreement signed between the company and the doctor, "The doctor is responsible for all the results of the surgery and the doctor takes the action for the treatment of possible complications." phrase is included. In the meantime, in case we have started to offer a service that covers possible complications under insurance for about a year. Currently this insurance is optional, but we will discuss making it mandatory on a case-by-case basis.
I was not in this company yet when the company was working with Ozgur Karakoyun. Therefore, I do not have detailed information about the situations in this plugin. It is clear that a complete answer will require a detailed archive search. However, while making investigations on some case studies during the restructuring of the company, I learned that there were some problems in two of Karakoyun's patients, who had correspondence in the link you sent, and that one patient had a tibial alignment problem and other patient had different problem due to the Stryde nail, and the case was taken to the court.As far as I understand, the panel of experts appointed by the court has expressed an opinion that the problem, one of the patients has, is not caused by the doctor's procedure, but by the structural problems in the Stryde nail used. As it is known, the Stryde method has been abandoned worldwide after many problems. As for the patient having tibial misalignment, I do not remember if there is an expert report on tibial misalignment. However, in the first trials, the court did not find it appropriate to face any accusation WBT as the interlocutor in the case, as there was no point that required our company to be a party in the lawsuit. In other words, the lawsuit is between doctors and patients and is still ongoing.
Discussions about WBT are multifaceted and complex, encompassing both WBT's policies and medical malpractice by surgeons. I am primarily concerned with the medical malpractice and the associated contract.
Images from the Suddenurge topic (http://www.limblengtheningforum.com/index.php?topic=64059.0) are missing, but I remember seeing them at the time. They showed a procurvatum deformity of the tibia, apparently a result of a surgeon's technical error.
The contract states 'The doctor is responsible for all the results of the surgery and takes action for the treatment of possible complications,' so Dr. Özgur Karakoyun should be obliged to compensate the patient, depending on the trial's outcome. WBT has no contractual liability for medical malpractice.
However, since there was an obvious surgeon's error, the average patient would probably agree that if the doctor does not provide compensation himself, the operating company should offer some without a trial.
The system where the individual surgeon bears all responsibility could cause surgeons to be more reluctant to admit fault, possibly delaying the treatment of complications.
Moreover, the fact that the head of WBT is not a medical professional might also contribute to the hiring of incompetent surgeons without proper evaluation of their skills.
Hopefully, the current Dr. Yunus is competent. Additionally, I think an insurance protocol would be a good idea.
Wannabetaller destroyed my life
Quote from: Maison on August 23, 2023, 12:38:07 PMDiscussions about WBT are multifaceted and complex, encompassing both WBT's policies and medical malpractice by surgeons. I am primarily concerned with the medical malpractice and the associated contract.
Images from the Suddenurge topic (http://www.limblengtheningforum.com/index.php?topic=64059.0) are missing, but I remember seeing them at the time. They showed a procurvatum deformity of the tibia, apparently a result of a surgeon's technical error.
The contract states 'The doctor is responsible for all the results of the surgery and takes action for the treatment of possible complications,' so Dr. Özgur Karakoyun should be obliged to compensate the patient, depending on the trial's outcome. WBT has no contractual liability for medical malpractice.
However, since there was an obvious surgeon's error, the average patient would probably agree that if the doctor does not provide compensation himself, the operating company should offer some without a trial.
The system where the individual surgeon bears all responsibility could cause surgeons to be more reluctant to admit fault, possibly delaying the treatment of complications.
Moreover, the fact that the head of WBT is not a medical professional might also contribute to the hiring of incompetent surgeons without proper evaluation of their skills.
Hopefully, the current Dr. Yunus is competent. Additionally, I think an insurance protocol would be a good idea.
I also have to admit that the discussions are multifaceted and complex. This confusion is partly due to the fact that some patients, while addressing the issue, move away from the focus and make some irrelevant claims.
Yes, according to the contract, the doctor is responsible for the consequences of negligence, if there is any negligence. Even if this and similar phrases are not included in the contract itself, the laws already have an approach to hold the doctor responsible for the consequences of his negligence. I understand the expectations of patients from the company in such situations. But we will have to be realistic. Because in your proposal, the company is compressed in a double-sided vice, consisting of the mistakes of the patient on one side and the mistakes of the doctor on the other. If the patient is at fault or if the complication is caused by a naturally occurring factor such as bone nonunion, the doctor will not accept compensation or free treatment. In this case, the entire burden is placed on the back of the company. On the other hand, if the doctor is at fault, but is unwilling to pay the compensation for his mistake, the entire burden is again placed on the company. The primary issue here is to determine whether the fault/negligence is caused by the doctor or the patient. However, it is very difficult to understand who is right and who is wrong, as both the patient and the doctor will make their own claims. In this case, too, the best option is to seek the opinions of an impartial third party.
You expressed that "A system where full responsibility rests with the individual surgeon may make surgeons more reluctant to admit their mistakes and possibly delay the treatment of complications. Moreover, the fact that the WBT head is not a medical professional may also contribute to the recruitment of incompetent surgeons without properly assessing their skills." I also agree with this.
"Yes, the founder of WBT is not a medical doctor, he is a lengthening patient. This has its own advantages and disadvantages." I said in my previous answer. The disadvantages in our system are actually related to the points you highlighted. However, there is a dilemma here. If the responsibility does not belong to the doctor but the system, this time, a problem may arise, such as the doctor not being meticulous enough in his work, since he is not responsible. Think about it, why should anyone care about their job if someone else will pay the price for their mistake in a job instead of themselves! Moreover, the tendency to avoid problems/responsibility is a mistake that most doctors make, whether the doctor is the founder of the company or not. Here, it becomes more important for the doctor to have a professional ethic and character that will ensure that he does not make this mistake. As you mentioned, insurance is a good option to overcome these problems and we will develop this option.
Thank you for your gracious approach, reasonable suggestions and criticisms. It was my pleasure to exchange ideas with you.
Quote from: Maison on August 23, 2023, 03:19:25 AMWBT provided Bubuzenggao with the contact information for Yuksel after the doctor's change, but it's unclear whether they did so because he preferred treatment from Yuksel rather than Yunus.
Additionally, it's unknown how the treatment expenses were handled at that time.
Regarding this matter, I would like to wait for an explanation from the parties involved.
As an aside, Bubuzenggao especially wanted debridement early, but I suspect that the infection had already spread widely by the time the pus burst.
Therefore, debridement alone would not have been enough for a complete cure, and the removal of the nail would have been necessary.
Hello, I think you may have misunderstood something, possibly due to language translation issues. Firstly, bubuzenggao is not my name, it is wannabertaller‘s name in China. You misunderstood I think it is normal. But as the second in command of the company, I find it a bit ridiculous that he could even use bubuzenggao as my name. They don’t clarify it. Secondly, when I discovered the infection, I immediately contacted the company, but the company said that Yuksel was on vacation and would be back in 5 days, without medical ethics and the company was not responsible. After Yunus took over, I always insisted on undergoing debridement surgery, while the company and doctors insisted that only antibiotics were needed, which made me trust the doctor's judgment and delayed the optimal treatment period. I have kept these conversation records. I have retained sufficient evidence, they have no evidence at all, and they keep spread rumors and shamelessly claim that my screenshot is incomplete. So why did not they send out chat records for everyone to see ? Just to mention protecting patient privacy? OK , I authorize Wannarbeteller can send out chat records with me for everyone to see.
There is one more thing I want to say to everyone: Wannabetaller has been saying that I am distorting the facts and intentionally smearing them. I want to say that speaking on the forum does not benefit me at all . But Wannbetaller spoke on the forum, anxious to whitewash teamself, transfer all responsibility to the victim, What's their purpose? Everyone should have a scale in their hearts. You can make your own judgments, whether to gamble or not, gamble on your own legs.
Quote from: Wannabetaller（Victim of the Wannabetaller） on August 24, 2023, 04:28:11 PMHello, I think you may have misunderstood something, possibly due to language translation issues. Firstly, bubuzenggao is not my name, it is wannabertaller‘s name in China. You misunderstood I think it is normal. But as the second in command of the company, I find it a bit ridiculous that he could even use bubuzenggao as my name. They don’t clarify it. Secondly, when I discovered the infection, I immediately contacted the company, but the company said that Yuksel was on vacation and would be back in 5 days, without medical ethics and the company was not responsible. After Yunus took over, I always insisted on undergoing debridement surgery, while the company and doctors insisted that only antibiotics were needed, which made me trust the doctor's judgment and delayed the optimal treatment period. I have kept these conversation records. I have retained sufficient evidence, they have no evidence at all, and they keep spread rumors and shamelessly claim that my screenshot is incomplete. So why did not they send out chat records for everyone to see ? Just to mention protecting patient privacy? OK , I authorize Wannarbeteller can send out chat records with me for everyone to see.
Hello.I am sorry for the misunderstanding about your name.
In my personal opinion, it was a stroke of good luck that another osteomyelitis case in WBT was healed with early debridement.
When osteomyelitis occurs in the tibia with an intramedullary nail and the inflammation is so strong that the skin surface is swollen, I believe that usually in addition to debridement, nail removal and prolonged antibiotic therapy are also necessary.
Therefore, I think it is possible that even with early debridement, the osteomyelitis would not have healed and you would have had to switch to the treatment you received in China.
Quote from: Wannabetaller（Victim of the Wannabetaller） on August 11, 2023, 01:27:10 AMWannabetaller asked their new doctor yunus to prescribe antibiotic IV for me after 15 days of pus and let me go home and infuse. But because they said that I am not serious and do not need to do debridement, they said that the pus will not flow into the bone cavity, and finally the infusion did not completely kill the bacteria, 2 months have passed and my wound has not fully healed, and there is still fluid coming out , yunus said it’s okay, I can take a shower, and promised that there will be no more problems in the future. After less than 2 months, my knees began to be red, swollen and painful.
If this is true, then Dr. Yunus clearly made a mistake.
He allowed the patient to return home without confirming that the osteomyelitis had been fully treated.
Also, I am not sure of the timeline of your symptoms, is it possible for you to tell me?
The date of your initial surgery
The date when the external fixator was removed
(July 8, 2022: When you first observed swelling in your lower leg)
The date Yunus started you on antibiotics
(October 24, 2022: When the swelling reappeared)
The date of your surgery in China
Quote from: Wannabetaller（Victim of the Wannabetaller） on August 24, 2023, 04:28:11 PMHello, I think you may have misunderstood something, possibly due to language translation issues. Firstly, bubuzenggao is not my name, it is wannabertaller‘s name in China. You misunderstood I think it is normal. But as the second in command of the company, I find it a bit ridiculous that he could even use bubuzenggao as my name. They don’t clarify it. Secondly, when I discovered the infection, I immediately contacted the company, but the company said that Yuksel was on vacation and would be back in 5 days, without medical ethics and the company was not responsible. After Yunus took over, I always insisted on undergoing debridement surgery, while the company and doctors insisted that only antibiotics were needed, which made me trust the doctor's judgment and delayed the optimal treatment period. I have kept these conversation records. I have retained sufficient evidence, they have no evidence at all, and they keep spread rumors and shamelessly claim that my screenshot is incomplete. So why did not they send out chat records for everyone to see ? Just to mention protecting patient privacy? OK , I authorize Wannarbeteller can send out chat records with me for everyone to see.
While I was writing my answer to the Maison, I mentioned you as "this patient" and in parentheses I stated "You(Maison) called Bubuzenggao". Your nickname was a very long name like Wannabetaller- Bubuzenggao(victims of Turkey) and I shortened it as Maison did. While stating this, I thought that Maison had already assumed that Bubuzenggao as your nickname. Even in this, I was really surprised that you were looking for ulterior motives.
"Secondly, when I discovered the infection, I immediately contacted the company, but the company said that Yuksel was on vacation and would be back in 5 days, without medical ethics and the company was not responsible." you say. An infection cannot appear out of nowhere and suddenly progress. I think you were late to connect with the relevant units. (I may be wrong.)
In the ordinary course of life, it is possible for a doctor to be on vacation when a patient contacts his doctor. What the company does here is to refer to the legal positions of the parties (Company-Doctor-Patient) framed by contracts. Medical ethics is also not a completely independent concept from this legal framework.
"While I always insisted on having debridement surgery after Yunus took over, the company and the doctors insisted that only antibiotics were needed, which gave me confidence in the doctor's judgment and delayed optimal treatment time." you say. The company cannot put pressure on the patient in any treatment or diagnosis protocol, and cannot insist on such matters. The company has to act in accordance with the opinion of the doctor/expert in the diagnosis and treatment of the disease. What was did is that you just have been reminded of this fact at that time. Reminding this fact does not mean that the company insists on anything, it simply means that it has to stick to the framework set by the expert. The same goes for you. No patient can tell the doctor which treatment and diagnostic protocol to follow. He/she, like all parties, has to act in accordance with the instructions of the expert. If he claims that he has been harmed because of following the instructions of the specialist/doctor, what needs to be done here is to apply to third parties (court-expert), which is the company's policy in this regard. If you have conversation recordings showing that the doctor was wrong and you think you have enough evidence with them, what you need to do is to apply to a legal authority for your rights as soon as possible. If the doctor thinks that he has made the right treatment and diagnosis and you, on the contrary, you think that he has made a wrong diagnosis and treatment, the company will recommend that you apply to an impartial authority as a third party. If you were faced with the same situation in an institution where the founder of the company was a doctor himself, this path you should follow would not change even so.
Yes, I still claim that you manipulated your screenshots. The first is because you distract your attention with unfounded claims that are not related to your victimization, and the second because it makes you think that you have chosen the passages that you think are in your favor. I stated very clearly more than once why I did not prefer to share the chat logs. This is a professional and principled stance for us, regardless of your consent or opinion. Although it was in our favor from the beginning, we did not share any screenshots in any place, but you already share everything. Therefore, you have no reason to renege on you from sharing.
Quote from: Wannabetaller（Victim of the Wannabetaller） on August 25, 2023, 10:50:18 AMThere is one more thing I want to say to everyone: Wannabetaller has been saying that I am distorting the facts and intentionally smearing them. I want to say that speaking on the forum does not benefit me at all . But Wannbetaller spoke on the forum, anxious to whitewash teamself, transfer all responsibility to the victim, What's their purpose? Everyone should have a scale in their hearts. You can make your own judgments, whether to gamble or not, gamble on your own legs.
I don't want to get into the same useless discussions with you here and doom both us and the forum members to a vicious circle. Still, I think a few clarifications would be helpful.
I never wanted to enter into a conflict with you over the victimization you experienced. I even pointed out persistently that you have to focus on your grievances and that resorting to unfounded claims and manipulations will affect you most negatively, and if you are right, unfounded claims and manipulations will harm your righteousness.
The thread that got me into the forum discussions was the thread of "My review of wannabe taller Turkey (mostly negative )". I came to the forum to respond to unfounded allegations made under this title, which have no other purpose than to defame the company. I responded to the allegations made with full candor and frankness. I carefully noted all the constructive and concrete criticisms. But you got involved in the discussion yourself while I was fighting against slander and defamation on the company under this title. I have nothing to say about your involvement in the discussion. I just advised you to stay away from manipulations by inviting you to be honest and transparent. I have never put all the responsibility on you for your suffering. An unbiased eye will notice how impartial I try to be, given that I am even an official.
Yes, everyone should have a balance in their heart, and everyone should fight for justice in moral and just/fair ways. But you failed to do so. Since I do not want to repeat the same things here, I will not repeat my answers about why you failed to do this and will only give an example:
False: The company sold my address information through a former employee to another patient (named Seven) who wanted to harm me. (This was your claim.)
True: Due to the personal conflict between you and Seven, you have shared the private information of this patient (named Seven), including the photos and identity information, on various platforms with insults. We have told you that what you have done is both wrong and a serious crime under Turkish law, and that this may cause you to be punished. Moreover, you were making the same mistake for our staff from Xiangian, who did nothing but strive for your well-being. You did not listen to us and continued with your misbehavior. After a while, our former employee came directly to me and stated that the patient named Seven offered him money to find out your address and that he wanted to punish you for what you did. Upon this news, I asked your representative to be warned once again about the relevant issue. We advised the patient after your address to seek his rights through legal means instead of embarking on such a dangerous and illegal path. So what did you do?! Despite all our humane and professional behavior in this matter for your sake, you have accused us here of selling your information. (In fact, I should be ashamed of myself due to revisit and elaborate on your claim here.)
"You can make your own judgments, whether to gamble or not, gamble on your own legs." you said. I totally agree with your opinion. Let people decide of their own free will. We have already acknowledged in previous discussions that choosing a company for a lengthening surgery is a kind of "gamble". We have also openly acknowledged and stated that the possible complications/risks in this gamble can be minimized, but never eliminated entirely by the nature of any surgery, if the patient strictly adheres to the instructions of the experts.
Quote from: Maison on August 26, 2023, 07:09:28 AMHello.I am sorry for the misunderstanding about your name.
In my personal opinion, it was a stroke of good luck that another osteomyelitis case in WBT was healed with early debridement.
When osteomyelitis occurs in the tibia with an intramedullary nail and the inflammation is so strong that the skin surface is swollen, I believe that usually in addition to debridement, nail removal and prolonged antibiotic therapy are also necessary.
Therefore, I think it is possible that even with early debridement, the osteomyelitis would not have healed and you would have had to switch to the treatment you received in China.
If this is true, then Dr. Yunus clearly made a mistake.
He allowed the patient to return home without confirming that the osteomyelitis had been fully treated.
Also, I am not sure of the timeline of your symptoms, is it possible for you to tell me?
The date of your initial surgery
The date when the external fixator was removed
(July 8, 2022: When you first observed swelling in your lower leg)
The date Yunus started you on antibiotics
(October 24, 2022: When the swelling reappeared)
The date of your surgery in China
All the details you mention here are matters that require a medical expertise. Therefore, I neither reject nor accept your claim that the doctor misdiagnosed and treated. I think it would be more appropriate to seek the opinions of an expert before a court, just as you did here, and to stick to the court's decision.
According to my personal observations up to now, Dr. Yunus is a successful and talended doctor. Before working with our company, he has treated many orthopedic cases with great success. Likewise, he has been with us for about two years and has performed lengthening surgeries on more than 120 patients during this time according to my estimation. (Three of these surgeries are shortening surgery.) Fortunately, no major complication developed in any of our patients. Some minor complications developed in approximately eight of our patients, and these complications could be prevented without causing a serious problem, with the doctor's on-site and timely intervention. (Bone nounion in two patients, internal nail distortion in one patient, elongation stopped due to loosening of the fixator screw in one patient, the onset of infection in one patient, failure of the precice nail in the right leg to nonextend in one patient, the screws in the fixator connections being too tight in one of our patients, fat embolism during removal surgery in one patient. All these complications were successfully managed and each of our patients is now healthy.)
.
Quote from: Maison on August 26, 2023, 07:09:28 AMAlso, I am not sure of the timeline of your symptoms, is it possible for you to tell me?
The date of your initial surgery
The date when the external fixator was removed
(July 8, 2022: When you first observed swelling in your lower leg)
The date Yunus started you on antibiotics
(October 24, 2022: When the swelling reappeared)
The date of your surgery in China
Sorry, I forgot that I asked similar questions earlier on another topic.
Here is a summary of the timeline I found from your previous post.
If you have any corrections or additions, please add a description. If you can, it would be helpful if you could write in the same style as I did to make it easier to read.
January 1, 2022: Initial surgery
April 5: Removal of external fixation
July 8: First observation of swelling in lower leg
July 10: Swelling erupted with a large amount of pus
July 11: Treated by intern doctor
July 14: Yunus conducted a bacterial culture test and prescribed oral antibiotics
July 20: Diagnosed with osteomyelitis and started on injections of gentamicin and rifamycin for 6 weeks
September 1: Told by Yunus that no further treatment was needed
?: Return date to home country
October 24: Swelling reappeared
?: Date of surgery in China
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