I juist dont like your way of thinking. Its rooted in arrogance, pride, narcissism, sociopathy, and inferiority or superiority complex. These are negative traits that I despite in people.
I don't like your lack of critical thinking either. If there was one thing I could give to the world it'd be the ability to critically evaluate claims and statements. The problem is I didn't think of race when I gave my examples.
You guys are both arguing against different arguments.
Quote from: ThatGuy on November 24, 2018, 12:50:58 AMHmm, Vietnam and Peru might not have been my best choices here, but I still don't think the averages would stay around 5'4 with decent diets and proper sanitation.
I'll help you all out here.
Here is an infographic on Japan's average height over a bit over a century. Japan is a developed nation.
There was a continuous increase in height, associated with better diets, hygiene, and healthcare since at least the 1890s. However, it stabilized in the late 70s. The average Japanese man stayed around 170~174cm (5'7~5'8.5). They didn't keep the same pace, in terms of average stature growth, over the last 40 years. This is almost certainly because of genetics. Japan doesn't require better sanitation, the country has a pretty carnivorous diet, and children are even given milk at schools every week, despite the low lactose tolerance in the population.
Here are the two main papers that cover our present scientific knowledge of height and genetics:
https://www.nature.com/articles/ng.3097
https://www.nature.com/articles/nature21039
As it stands, we still know very little about all the genetic factors that govern height. However, that does not mean it's not of the main factors that could define an expected height range in adults.
I agree with myloginacc. There is evidence that even now poor sanitation, contaminated water supplies do impact height. Quotes from the reports http://blogs.worldbank.org/impactevaluations/the-toilet-gap-how-much-of-differences-across-developing-countries-in-child-height-can-sanitation-ex and https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/aug/09/india-children-stunted-growth-unsanitary-conditions-50-million:
Households in India are less poor, on average, than households in Sub-Saharan Africa, but children there are shorter. Stunting is common even among relatively well-off families in India. However, widespread Indian stunting is not due to genetics: Indian babies who move to developed countries in early life grow much taller.
I also agree there are a lot of factors involved including:
I also agree with Ivan that in the west we are probably going too far in terms of cleanliness - resulting in more and more autoimmune diseases. Basically we a have powerful immune system with nothing to attack other than our own bodies.
Quote from: myloginacc on November 24, 2018, 01:43:42 PMYou guys are both arguing against different arguments.
I'll help you all out here.
Here is an infographic on Japan's average height over a bit over a century. Japan is a developed nation.
There was a continuous increase in height, associated with better diets, hygiene, and healthcare since at least the 1890s. However, it stabilized in the late 70s. The average Japanese man stayed around 170~174cm (5'7~5'8.5). They didn't keep the same pace, in terms of average stature growth, over the last 40 years. This is almost certainly because of genetics. Japan doesn't require better sanitation, the country has a pretty carnivorous diet, and children are even given milk at schools every week, despite the low lactose tolerance in the population.
Here are the two main papers that cover our present scientific knowledge of height and genetics:
https://www.nature.com/articles/ng.3097
https://www.nature.com/articles/nature21039
As it stands, we still know very little about all the genetic factors that govern height. However, that does not mean it's not of the main factors that could define an expected height range in adults.
Thanks for the data, I just thought it was strange that an entire demographic of people could wind up around 4'10-5'3(I'm including women to be fair) because of their genetics. So I'm convinced in these extreme cases its because of the diet/sanitation of the countries they were raised. (This doesn't mean that these people are weaker, it doesn't even mean that they lack the intelligence, it also doesn't mean they're completely hopeless and incapable of utilizing their own resources. This is simply me talking about how their current situation(which might've been caused by colonialism or constant warring states or even religious extremism) might negatively affect them. I'm not bringing this up to feel superior to them either. Inb4 someone says that the charts listed here are prejudiced somehow.)
Genetics has always been a major component of height.
When the tallest countries in the world (right now) had lower average heights, today's "short" countries had even lower average heights.
Likewise, poor Sub-Saharan Africans tend to be naturally taller than equally poor and malnourished Asians. Again, genetics.
Some researchers think the Dinka people (an African people) are the naturally tallest in the world, after some comparative studies:
QuoteDinka are sometimes noted for their height. With the Tutsi of Rwanda, they are believed to be the tallest people in Africa. Roberts and Bainbridge reported the average height of 182.6 cm (5 ft 11.9 in) in a sample of 52 Dinka Agaar and 181.3 cm (5 ft 11.4 in) in 227 Dinka Ruweng measured in 1953–1954. However, it seems the stature of today's Dinka males is lower, possibly as a consequence of undernutrition and conflicts. An anthropometric survey of Dinka men, war refugees in Ethiopia, published in 1995 found a mean height of 176.4 cm (5 ft 9.4 in). Other studies of comparative historical height data and nutrition place the Dinka as the tallest people in the world.
Do also bear in mind that even height heritability varies among human populations. The Dinka are most likely more affected by malnutrition and disease, in terms of how it impacts their height, than a Finn.
Quote from: Ascending on November 24, 2018, 02:16:35 PMI agree with myloginacc. There is evidence that even now poor sanitation, contaminated water supplies do impact height. Quotes from the reports http://blogs.worldbank.org/impactevaluations/the-toilet-gap-how-much-of-differences-across-developing-countries-in-child-height-can-sanitation-ex and https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/aug/09/india-children-stunted-growth-unsanitary-conditions-50-million:
Households in India are less poor, on average, than households in Sub-Saharan Africa, but children there are shorter. Stunting is common even among relatively well-off families in India. However, widespread Indian stunting is not due to genetics: Indian babies who move to developed countries in early life grow much taller.
I also agree there are a lot of factors involved including:
I also agree with Ivan that in the west we are probably going too far in terms of cleanliness - resulting in more and more autoimmune diseases. Basically we a have powerful immune system with nothing to attack other than our own bodies.
You guys are spot on. There are plenty of examples like India that prove that all of these things can have devastating effects on the final height of an individual. I remember watching a video on youtube where a professor was giving a lecture and he touched on epigenetics a little bit, he gave the same example about famines and how they can have devastating effects generations past the mother who experienced it, I was amazed just how much little things here and there could actually affect the overall outcome of a grandchild or even great grandchild. I wonder if I can still find those videos online. I wonder if things like Jim crow could've had a major effect on me even tho I've never experienced it(I'd say slavery too, but its not the best example in this case because the slaves were breed to be as big and as strong as possible) I think they were called super slaves.
Quote from: myloginacc on November 24, 2018, 02:45:22 PM...
Do also bear in mind that even height heritability varies among human populations. The Dinka are most likely more affected by malnutrition and disease, in terms of how it impacts their height, than a Finn.
That's really interesting.
heightism exists. thts it
Quote from: ThatGuy on November 24, 2018, 11:14:04 AMI'm the prejudice one when you're saying these people are 5'3 because of their genetics? I bet black people have lower iqs because of their ethnicity too. Saying that a nation's economics and sanitation being poor negatively effects their development is not prejudice even remotely. what you're saying would be like saying blacks commit more crime not because of their socioeconomic status, but because they're genetically predisposed to. I'll help you out, if you see me saying that something is the fault of any nation or people because of their genetics or because they're simply not as well off because they're generally inferior you can shxt down my throat for it and it'd be well deserved.
Height on one hand and IQ and the tendency to commit crime cannot be compared, at all. It's not prejudice or racism to claim that some ethnic groups have a lower genetic height potential than others, it's simply a fact. Committing crime actually has devastating effects and can destroy the lives of those who land in prison, their families and that of the victims. Short height will not destroy your life or that of any others even though you can face discrimination.
Unsanitary conditions will also not stunt your growth, on its own. Diarrhea caused by infections will stunt it. And not just diarrhea, but multiple, long-lasting episodes of diarrhea.
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