A few things. I've read this study before btw
1- none of these patients had their tendons severed and their limbs and surrounding soft tissue lengthened. There is an enormous difference between our situation vs a rupture healing long
2- We have had both tendons lengthened, not one. This is not a linear relationship. Two tendons each of a deficit of 20% would not cause an overall deficit of just 20%. The deficit will be quite a bit larger
3-The authors state "Maximum calf circumference was significantly decreased in the operated leg by the time of latest follow-up "
4- they also state "The operated limb was significantly weaker than the nonoperated one."
Those results are from testing done on avg over 30 months after the surgery. Their operated limbs were significantly weaker and smaller even after quite a significant amount of time.
I've seen this study before, among many others. I was expecting something different.
I wish you the best, and shortening can(though it is by no means assured) help, but according to this study, best case scenario we'd be looking around is around a 30% deficit which is enormous. I can only speak for myself, but this would be unacceptable
Anyway, I do wish you the best
Good luck Bodybuilder
Quote from: Body Builder on February 23, 2017, 11:08:28 PMHere is the link Crimsontide
"test paired sampled statistics showed that the operated limb had a lower peak torque than the nonoperated leg (240.9 N ± 51.9 N vs. 299.0 N ± 44.2 N; P = 0.05), but the patients did not perceive this decrease in strength as interfering with their daily or leisure activities. ".
299 N to 241 N means a reduction of plantar flexion power of about 20%, not 50% as you mentioned.
Also most of the patiens didn't saw any major difference between the operated and the non operated leg after tendon shortening, although before this surgery they couldn't even do a single heel raise (I can do more than 40 in each leg).
And finally, these patients where about 50 years old which doesn't help a lot for a great outcome compared to my 28 years.
So if they reached about 80% compared to their non operated leg, I'm almost sure than my outcome will be at least the same and maybe bettet.
All the above numbers and everything about achilles tendon shortening after tendon elongation due to bad surgery after achilles rupture (which is the same as tendon overlengthening after atl) are mentioned here:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3460090/
A few things. I've read this study before btw
1- none of these patients had their tendons severed and their limbs and surrounding soft tissue lengthened. There is an enormous difference between our situation vs a rupture healing long
2- We have had both tendons lengthened, not one. This is not a linear relationship. Two tendons each of a deficit of 20% would not cause an overall deficit of just 20%. The deficit will be quite a bit larger
3-The authors state "Maximum calf circumference was significantly decreased in the operated leg by the time of latest follow-up "
4- they also state "The operated limb was significantly weaker than the nonoperated one."
Those results are from testing done on avg over 30 months after the surgery. Their operated limbs were significantly weaker and smaller even after quite a significant amount of time.
I've seen this study before, among many others. I was expecting something different.
I wish you the best, and shortening can(though it is by no means assured) help, but according to this study, best case scenario we'd be looking around is around a 30% deficit which is enormous. I can only speak for myself, but this would be unacceptable
Anyway, I do wish you the best
Good luck Bodybuilder
Quote from: Body Builder on February 23, 2017, 11:08:28 PMHere is the link Crimsontide
"test paired sampled statistics showed that the operated limb had a lower peak torque than the nonoperated leg (240.9 N ± 51.9 N vs. 299.0 N ± 44.2 N; P = 0.05), but the patients did not perceive this decrease in strength as interfering with their daily or leisure activities. ".
299 N to 241 N means a reduction of plantar flexion power of about 20%, not 50% as you mentioned.
Also most of the patiens didn't saw any major difference between the operated and the non operated leg after tendon shortening, although before this surgery they couldn't even do a single heel raise (I can do more than 40 in each leg).
And finally, these patients where about 50 years old which doesn't help a lot for a great outcome compared to my 28 years.
So if they reached about 80% compared to their non operated leg, I'm almost sure than my outcome will be at least the same and maybe bettet.
All the above numbers and everything about achilles tendon shortening after tendon elongation due to bad surgery after achilles rupture (which is the same as tendon overlengthening after atl) are mentioned here:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3460090/
Crimsontide, even now I don't have a 30% deficit in power and as I said before, my calves are not even 10% smaller than before atl.
To be completely honest, it is the feeling of loose tendons that make me to plan shortening and not the reduction of push off power, because even now the plantar flexion power I have is more than reasonable so I don't have any problem with that.
Also, i think that the gait disturbance is much worse when you have only one operated leg. I'm not sure but I think it is more balanced to have 2 feet at 80-85% than one foot 100% and the other one 70% or something.
Finally, yes, there are some differences in tendon elongation after achilles rupture and tendon lengthening due to equinus after LL. But not about the tendon per se. After all, achilles rupture is a more severe injury and destroys a good part of the tendon compared to atl which lets the initial tendon almost intact but it is cut and lengthened which alters dramatically the length and tension of gastrocnemius-soleus muscles.
Our problem and everyones who did atl is not the quality of the new tendon, because even scar tissue in young people like me (I don't know your age) is very strong due to the lot colagen synthesis we have.
But tendon length is much more important than tendon quality and I'm almost sure that this is what causes our and everyone who did atl the gait problems we have. And that's why the most you lemgthened your tendon the worse the outcome, become even in my case, right foot is almost normal but left is much worse and of course I did atl in both of them but on the right the lengthening of achilles was minor while on the right it was way more.
So, length of the tendon is the most significant and that's why I truly believe that tendon shortening will help us a lot.
I don't know if the push off strength will be 70 or 90% but if I'd feel my walking is completely normal again, like almost all of the patients in study mentioned, I'm completely ok with that.
But we'll see, and thanks for the kind words.
Keep strong!
Crimsontide, even now I don't have a 30% deficit in power and as I said before, my calves are not even 10% smaller than before atl.
To be completely honest, it is the feeling of loose tendons that make me to plan shortening and not the reduction of push off power, because even now the plantar flexion power I have is more than reasonable so I don't have any problem with that.
Also, i think that the gait disturbance is much worse when you have only one operated leg. I'm not sure but I think it is more balanced to have 2 feet at 80-85% than one foot 100% and the other one 70% or something.
Finally, yes, there are some differences in tendon elongation after achilles rupture and tendon lengthening due to equinus after LL. But not about the tendon per se. After all, achilles rupture is a more severe injury and destroys a good part of the tendon compared to atl which lets the initial tendon almost intact but it is cut and lengthened which alters dramatically the length and tension of gastrocnemius-soleus muscles.
Our problem and everyones who did atl is not the quality of the new tendon, because even scar tissue in young people like me (I don't know your age) is very strong due to the lot colagen synthesis we have.
But tendon length is much more important than tendon quality and I'm almost sure that this is what causes our and everyone who did atl the gait problems we have. And that's why the most you lemgthened your tendon the worse the outcome, become even in my case, right foot is almost normal but left is much worse and of course I did atl in both of them but on the right the lengthening of achilles was minor while on the right it was way more.
So, length of the tendon is the most significant and that's why I truly believe that tendon shortening will help us a lot.
I don't know if the push off strength will be 70 or 90% but if I'd feel my walking is completely normal again, like almost all of the patients in study mentioned, I'm completely ok with that.
But we'll see, and thanks for the kind words.
Keep strong!
Quote from: Big Daddy on February 23, 2017, 01:21:41 AMI know plenty from the time I've spent here. For very short guys I totally understand why they do it. But guys pushing to get into tall territory even after they've been jacked up by one leg lengthening clearly have problems similar to an anorexic or something. If you have to get an ATL and walk like a gimp and insist that you're gonna get another one because "lol least i'll be tall" then it's a case of delusion. A poster here called Sweden has the same thing, admitting he can barely run and isn't what he used to be, constant pains and stiffness and what not, yet still wants a second lengthening so he can get close to 6 feet. This is the kind of mentality that should disqualify these people from further surgery. These doctors are taking already injured people and injuring them even more with a second lengthening, should they accept them as a patient. They need a bunch of prozac, not another round of cosmetic surgery.
for as much trolling as big daddy does in some of his other posts, I thought this was an actually good and serious post. he brought up some harsh but real truths in my opinion. people who do LL and want more can easily fall into the same trap as people who do too much plastic surgery. I don't mean that's the case with body builder specifically, but in general. there is a rationale for some folks to do a 2nd LL, but I think it's a very very small minority. really tough to justify if you haven't recovered well from you're first LL and are already average height or more.
Quote from: goldenegg on February 26, 2017, 06:19:53 PMfor as much trolling as big daddy does in some of his other posts, I thought this was an actually good and serious post. he brought up some harsh but real truths in my opinion. people who do LL and want more can easily fall into the same trap as people who do too much plastic surgery. I don't mean that's the case with body builder specifically, but in general. there is a rationale for some folks to do a 2nd LL, but I think it's a very very small minority. really tough to justify if you haven't recovered well from you're first LL and are already average height or more.
I completely agree with both you and Big Daddy in this regard. Suffering daily, in constant pain, unable to walk correctly because of deformity and misalignment tantamount to being moderately disabled because of their limb lengthening experience and then seriously considering a second lengthening before addressing the current issues that were caused by that procedure in the aim to become taller whatever the toll because they believe height is the key to their problems is worrying and completely the wrong mindset to undergo limb lengthening.
Quote from: goldenegg on February 26, 2017, 06:19:53 PMfor as much trolling as big daddy does in some of his other posts, I thought this was an actually good and serious post. he brought up some harsh but real truths in my opinion. people who do LL and want more can easily fall into the same trap as people who do too much plastic surgery. I don't mean that's the case with body builder specifically, but in general. there is a rationale for some folks to do a 2nd LL, but I think it's a very very small minority. really tough to justify if you haven't recovered well from you're first LL and are already average height or more.
People who are, even a slight, taller than the average man in their country and want to risk by doing LL and add a few inches more I can totally agree that they have no real reason to do LL.
But people like me who are less, even about 4cm, than the average man in their country and don't want to be in any aspect of their lives less than average, especially when they tried a lot to improve their appearance in any way they could (work out, grooming, good clothes etc) but they still lack something that they can't improve psysically and is much important for the opposite gender, like height, then imo there is no reason to not try and fix it and feel completely fulfilled with themselves.
And unfortunately, the only way to change that is LL .
So if you have done everything else, at least what you really want for your self (because not every man wants to have muscles for instance) and you still face some negative, or at least not positive, comments for the ONLY thing you vmcan't change psysically at all and you see that you lack same chances that other, tall, men have especially with women, then you should take the risk and do what you believe that it is the only thing that hold you, even a little, back in your life.
And in my case, this thing is height and the only solution is LL.
I hope that you can understand what I'm saying and that you can see that I'm not a height lunatic like some people here who are doing LL with initial heights like 5.11 or even more and they sacrifice, even if things get completely ok without complications that the majority of LLers have, time, money and some of their athletic abilities for something that it won't help them even a little.
But people at my height, and of course the shorter ones even more, LL can really improve our lives and thats why I'm willing to take the risk for another one surgery.
And of course, I'm not talking about people who are suffering from great complications and want to do another one LL without fixing these complications first.
Thats why, even if my problems with tendons and a minor (about 3 degrees) misalignment in my right tibia don't cause me visible problem or any pain at all, I plan to completely (or at least in a great amount) fix them first and then go for a femur LL.
If I don't feel my legs completely normal, I won't consider doing another LL without fixing my problems first.
My bad if it seems like I was calling you out, not my intention just wanted to say big daddy had a good point in general. Trust me, I totally get where you're coming from. I already did my femurs with dr guichet 2 years ago and am also still way below average height and sometimes think about doing a 2nd round with my tibias haha. I just thought big daddy's advice is good for any height lunatics on here like you mentioned.
if you're still below average height where you are and the fact that you're working on fixing remaining complications before entertaining another LL is great. of course you know your own situation better than anyone else and I just hope others approach LL with a good mindset.
Quote from: Body Builder on February 26, 2017, 06:38:47 PMThats why, even if my problems with tendons and a minor (about 3 degrees) misalignment in my right tibia don't cause me visible problem or any pain at all, I plan to completely (or at least in a great amount) fix them first and then go for a femur LL.
If I don't feel my legs completely normal, I won't consider doing another LL without fixing my problems first.
Great to hear Body Builder - I hope current and future prospects of limb lengthening go in with this mindset, that getting to a good level of physical well being comes before any and all lengthening. Fingers crossed your ATL surgery goes to plan, and then on to the next step of your journey.
in my experience, thats true, at 5´5 you almost dont exist for most girls, at 5`8 you have it much more easy than at 5´5 but is still an issue, some girls will accept it and others not, but like in everything if you are under average it is going be something negative.
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