Tibia LL, Femur LL, biomechanics and YOU

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Quote from: CCMidwest on March 29, 2016, 03:01:29 AMIs he supposed to give away confidential email and phone numbers for the patients he spoke to?

I have spoke with 2 different patients of Dr. Paley's, I would not be able to prove they are fine (and they are), because the only thing I have is their word and seeing them walk and such. I also would not give out their contact info.

How exactly would I prove this?

How exactly is Tbike supposed to prove this?

Y'all are asking for something which does not exist. There are no studies of athletic ability post LL, and y'all know it. Which is part of the reason this forum exists, to provide that feedback.

That is also why patient interviews are SO important before getting LL.

Your answering questions that no one asked.

Who said anything about sharing contact info?

What's happening is using hearsay as absolutes regarding recovery. If I'm being told that patients have recovered full athletic ability
after doing 7-8 cm on tibia which has never been seen on the forums before I'd like to see something as it's so far removed from other
documented patient experiences.

Edit Post

Quote from: CCMidwest on March 29, 2016, 03:01:29 AMIs he supposed to give away confidential email and phone numbers for the patients he spoke to?

I have spoke with 2 different patients of Dr. Paley's, I would not be able to prove they are fine (and they are), because the only thing I have is their word and seeing them walk and such. I also would not give out their contact info.

How exactly would I prove this?

How exactly is Tbike supposed to prove this?

Y'all are asking for something which does not exist. There are no studies of athletic ability post LL, and y'all know it. Which is part of the reason this forum exists, to provide that feedback.

That is also why patient interviews are SO important before getting LL.

Your answering questions that no one asked.

Who said anything about sharing contact info?

What's happening is using hearsay as absolutes regarding recovery. If I'm being told that patients have recovered full athletic ability
after doing 7-8 cm on tibia which has never been seen on the forums before I'd like to see something as it's so far removed from other
documented patient experiences.

Edit Post

I am going to quote a few of the e-mails for you guys. Because I am kinda nice

1) female patient: LL was a very hard and big experience for me. First 3 months aftr surgery the pain was immense but afterwards it ot better with each day. The entire procedure (Lengthening-consolidation-frame removal) was 11 months for a total of 8cm gain. I have no problems with my legs what so ever. extremely happy with results. Good luck!

2)Male patient: Hey. The procedure is very hard but it can be done. There is pain but it is toleretable. After one month after lengthening I was able to walk without crutches (I was a really fast consolidation). After frame removal I got back as same as before. I lengthened 6.8 cm. Would do this all over again

3) Male patient: Ask as you wish. I had the frames for 10months I did 7.3cm. There is pain but not too much. Everthing is as before but ankle joint somewhat stiff when I wake up. Would do the entire procedure again

Edit Post

I am going to quote a few of the e-mails for you guys. Because I am kinda nice

1) female patient: LL was a very hard and big experience for me. First 3 months aftr surgery the pain was immense but afterwards it ot better with each day. The entire procedure (Lengthening-consolidation-frame removal) was 11 months for a total of 8cm gain. I have no problems with my legs what so ever. extremely happy with results. Good luck!

2)Male patient: Hey. The procedure is very hard but it can be done. There is pain but it is toleretable. After one month after lengthening I was able to walk without crutches (I was a really fast consolidation). After frame removal I got back as same as before. I lengthened 6.8 cm. Would do this all over again

3) Male patient: Ask as you wish. I had the frames for 10months I did 7.3cm. There is pain but not too much. Everthing is as before but ankle joint somewhat stiff when I wake up. Would do the entire procedure again

Edit Post

those emails prove nothing about the athletic recovery claims you have made...

I have to agree with thatdude, theuprising, crimsontide etc.  It's great that you decided to do tibias with a solid doctor like catagni, but whatever internal rationalization you've made comes through in your posts that are sometimes filled with biased mis-information, in my opinion. 

you suggested double cut osteotomies it seems just based on what catagni told you without knowing any of the bad things that have been said about it before. 

you make it sound like ATL is no big deal, when most top doctors including paley, rozbruch and guichet are against it.  I trust their opinions and crimsontide's more than yours.

your original post in this topic made it seem like 7-8 cm of tibia LL plus the ATL required would have no impact on biomechanics, which is just factually wrong and a very irresponsible comment to make.  you completely left out the importance of ankle dorsiflexion, which affects walking and running 

you're making some statements that are completely against past experiences and what top doctors advise, which the other experienced members have been pointing out this whole thread.

Edit Post

Quote from: goldenegg on March 29, 2016, 03:50:33 AMthose emails prove nothing about the athletic recovery claims you have made...

I have to agree with thatdude, theuprising, crimsontide etc.  It's great that you decided to do tibias with a solid doctor like catagni, but whatever internal rationalization you've made comes through in your posts that are sometimes filled with biased mis-information, in my opinion. 

you suggested double cut osteotomies it seems just based on what catagni told you without knowing any of the bad things that have been said about it before. 

you make it sound like ATL is no big deal, when most top doctors including paley, rozbruch and guichet are against it.  I trust their opinions and crimsontide's more than yours.

your original post in this topic made it seem like 7-8 cm of tibia LL plus the ATL required would have no impact on biomechanics, which is just factually wrong and a very irresponsible comment to make.  you completely left out the importance of ankle dorsiflexion, which affects walking and running 

you're making some statements that are completely against past experiences and what top doctors advise, which the other experienced members have been pointing out this whole thread.

The original post had nothing to do with ATL. And I said 6cm in the example. About biomechanics, of course ankle flexibility is important for walking. But what I adressed here, is biomechanics based on joint distance. You just imagine I have spoken ATL or that you an lenthen 7-8cm on tibias (If you will see my signature, I have no intentions to lengthen this much).
  You listen to LL doctors and a patient and I do the same... So basically on this thing we are in the same boat. You can disagree with me (Just like I disagree with you) but from a disagreement to claim that what I say is simply false is idiotic.
  About double cut osteotomies, I didnt suggest anything. I just said that Catagni do them (Altough as I said he did say to me that consolidation in the lower osteotomy is slower thus resulting in a consolidation phase that is slower than 1 osteotomy). He said he rarely do this anymore and I said that he told me that with me he wont do that but only 1 osteotomy. I didnt say anything. I just told the people to ask him about it that's all. I saw one mention in a diary on old forum of a guy who did that many years ago and that's all.

 About asking me where is the research, I never said I did have research papers with me. The "hearsay" I base my opinion on doesnt value more nor less than any diary here. It's the same. Crimsontide is a real guy (since we are on facebook) so I know he is not a false guy. His experience is real. Just like Lumier's experience is real.

 I have chosen the method and doc based on research I have done (took me two years... You will also see that in the beggining I was opting for guichet or Paley). I have a right to share my opinions and you have a right to disagree with them.. You do not however have a right to claim that what I say is false because it isnt.

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Quote from: theuprising on March 29, 2016, 03:14:52 AMYour answering questions that no one asked.

Who said anything about sharing contact info?

What's happening is using hearsay as absolutes regarding recovery. If I'm being told that patients have recovered full athletic ability
after doing 7-8 cm on tibia which has never been seen on the forums before I'd like to see something as it's so far removed from other
documented patient experiences.

Yeah, that was kinda my point. Unfortunately there is very little information available regarding the athletic ability of patients that lengthened ANY amount. My whole point was everybody here uses anecdotal information for pretty much everything. Everyone is screwed if they do this surgery, or everyone is 100% fine if they do this surgery, everyone is 6' tall and government studies are wrong, etc, etc...

There are a lot of people here that are very ego-invested in their opinions.

It's terrifying that there is not better information on the long term effects of LL. It really is. Combined with sh*t like doctor's advertising their services on creepy forums such as this one, and LL comes across as really, really shady.

So the best anyone of us can really do is trust the word of patients that have done this. And from what I gather, a lot of guys that do LL are really happy they did. However, it seems that when LL goes wrong, it goes WRONG.

If this forum did not have a bunch of hearsay and anecdotal evidence, it would just be a collection of scholarly articles and no conversation.

100% of the patients I've talked to in real life have said they are fine. But that is 2 patients. On this forum, there is a mix of happy post LL, and unhappy post LL.

But unless there is a research paper I am unaware of that shows the long term effects on athletic ability (beyond walking), then all we have is anecdotal evidence from those that have done LL, and that info is usually passed on by other members because most LL patients are NOT on this forum.