Quote from: BelowTheMean on July 09, 2021, 03:22:44 PMIn my experience being short doesn't have any real drawbacks outside of dating. Sure, tall guys make more money statistically, like $800 a year. That's less than $10K a year between a 5'0" and 6'0" guy. The variance on that statistic has to be insanely high as well. Sure, 58% of fortune 500 CEOs are over 6' tall, but guess what, most people aren't CEOs of publicly traded companies. The downside of being short in your career is basically negligible. If you're failing at making money, it's not because you're short, it's because you're bad at making money. If you have talent people will recognize it, and if you have entrepreneurial spirit being short isn't going to stop you from starting a business.
In dating, being short has real and significant disadvantages, especially with the most attractive women. Sure, short guys can get average looking and overweight women, and sometimes even decent looking ones. But the most attractive girls have unlimited men to choose from so they have no reason to consider short guys, unless the short guy is overwhelmingly good in other areas (i.e. being very rich). Women casually filter out men based on their height (both IRL and online) so being short is a very clear disadvantage here. On the other hand, have you seen an opening for an office job that has a height requirement? That's considered illegal discrimination.
If you're short and have an SO who you are attracted to and is attracted to you, that's great. You already beat the odds, why bother with LL? If I was married to a woman I was satisfied with, I would never get LL. The money, and more importantly, time wasted could be better spent doing almost anything else. LL is a terrible experience and total waste of time if you're just doing it to make yourself feel better. There are tons of other ways to feel better about yourself that don't involve breaking your legs. However, if you're doing it so you can find someone you like then at least there's a real life benefit to getting it done.
People keep talking about the "benefits" of LL, but can't seem to be able to explain what exactly these benefits are. Are you being bullied as an adult? Will 2-3 inches of height really help with that? Respect? Maybe you'll get slightly better first impressions with strangers if you're 2-3 inches taller, but I don't see people respecting a 5'8" man more than a 5'5" one based on height. Sports? You'll definitely be worse at these after LL, not better. Do you have height dysphoria or neurosis to a certain degree? LL might help with that, but so could therapy. If therapy can't fix it, then it sounds like you have a mental illness and I think getting LL to fix a mental illness is okay, especially if the cost is not a big deal to you.
I just don't see the point in suffering through LL if you're not doing it to improve your position in the dating pool, to correct dwarfism, or to cure your mental illness.
You're really gotta watch this if you think those things:
https://vimeo.com/6780321
Quote from: PerfectBody on July 06, 2021, 08:15:08 AMSounds like you're having a serious mental breakdown. Please find a therapist or post your incel opinions somewhere else
It's funny if I post red message = I have mental breakdowns
Imagine who want to have bf with idiot who have mindset like this
Make a forum name with "Perfect body" won't make you more attractive
Quote from: Medium Drink Of Water on July 10, 2021, 01:47:34 AMYou're really gotta watch this if you think those things:
https://vimeo.com/6780321
I think I've seen this before, but I watched it again. Here's what I got out of it.
- The primary problem with being a short man is that women want taller guys. That's exactly what I said in my post is the top reason to get LL.
- Short guys can't donate to sperm banks. I don't think this is a valid reason to get LL.
- People don't get out of the way when you walk toward them. Is this really that big of a problem? Is getting 2-3" from LL even going to help with this? In the current world if you just cough a few times on the street everyone will get out of your way.
- Being short is problematic in certain jobs. This is true; I can see how it would be hard to be a short door-to-door salesperson. I don't think LL will help much though.
- China used to have height discrimination out in the open. Now it's probably more on the DL. Would be a problem if you lived in China. LL is also illegal in China.
- In the middle of the China scene is the "foreign" patient old forum Admin? I thought he was from NY, but this guy has a British accent.
- There is implicit bias against short men, and short is associated with negativity. Yes, this is true, but is getting 2-3 inches through LL really going to help with that?
- Dr. Paley was once young and did externals too lol. This video is older than Precice!
- Also, IIRC the group featured in the video disbanded years ago due to lack of interest.
So yeah, I guess some short men do experience terrible discrimination and disrespect. I also think some of it also has to do with the men specifically and not just their height. Maybe their height and experiences growing up made them timid and easy to take advantage of. However, I still don't think LL is going to fix any problems with height discrimination or implicit bias against short men. I don't think being slightly taller is going to get you any more "respect" especially if you are still short after LL. I feel like if there is any benefit to LL outside of dating, doing LL might give you some new perspective on things, and one of those perspectives is your mind basically going, "Yeah, I was short and might still be short, but I did something big about it so FU." That's why I think that LL is a good fix if you have a mental problem that you can't get past with therapy.
However, getting a couple of inches will have real and concrete benefits in dating. You won't be filtered out as much by picky women both online and in person. Some women who might be willing to settle for your height and would have a bad attitude about it even if you got together might become more accepting of you. You'll be taller on average in a mixed group of single people and instantly become more accepted as a prospective date. You will likely become taller than quite a large percentile of women. You'll make much better first impressions in person, which counts for a lot in dating.
Anyway, based on what I've seen around the forum over the years, there are definitely people with height dysphoria, height neurosis, or even obsession with proportions to the point where it's debilitating. I would say that for some it's almost certainly a mental illness. I don't think there is anything wrong with mental illnesses though. In fact, mental illnesses should be more accepted because acknowledging it is the first step to fixing it. If the general public accepted that height neurosis was a mental illness, maybe LL could even get covered by insurance some day. Most normal short men do not obsess over their height even if they are incredibly dissatisfied with their height, and only a tiny tiny fraction of short men will ever get LL. Most will figure out some other way to cope with their height, so I think for those who just can't accept it, there's definitely something different going on in the brain. It's an internal problem so maybe LL is truly the only fix.
So to reiterate, cosmetic LL helps with:
1) Dating, by a lot and this is the most worthwhile reason to get LL.
2) Mental illness, when you are obsessed with being short to the point where only getting taller can fix it.
3) You are not just short statured, but actually a dwarf.
If I was happily married I would never never never ever do LL. It would soooooo not be worth it.
Quote from: BelowTheMean on July 10, 2021, 05:01:10 PMI think I've seen this before, but I watched it again. Here's what I got out of it.
- The primary problem with being a short man is that women want taller guys. That's exactly what I said in my post is the top reason to get LL.
- Short guys can't donate to sperm banks. I don't think this is a valid reason to get LL.
- People don't get out of the way when you walk toward them. Is this really that big of a problem? Is getting 2-3" from LL even going to help with this? In the current world if you just cough a few times on the street everyone will get out of your way.
- Being short is problematic in certain jobs. This is true; I can see how it would be hard to be a short door-to-door salesperson. I don't think LL will help much though.
- China used to have height discrimination out in the open. Now it's probably more on the DL. Would be a problem if you lived in China. LL is also illegal in China.
- In the middle of the China scene is the "foreign" patient old forum Admin? I thought he was from NY, but this guy has a British accent.
- There is implicit bias against short men, and short is associated with negativity. Yes, this is true, but is getting 2-3 inches through LL really going to help with that?
- Dr. Paley was once young and did externals too lol. This video is older than Precice!
- Also, IIRC the group featured in the video disbanded years ago due to lack of interest.
So yeah, I guess some short men do experience terrible discrimination and disrespect. I also think some of it also has to do with the men specifically and not just their height. Maybe their height and experiences growing up made them timid and easy to take advantage of. However, I still don't think LL is going to fix any problems with height discrimination or implicit bias against short men. I don't think being slightly taller is going to get you any more "respect" especially if you are still short after LL. I feel like if there is any benefit to LL outside of dating, doing LL might give you some new perspective on things, and one of those perspectives is your mind basically going, "Yeah, I was short and might still be short, but I did something big about it so FU." That's why I think that LL is a good fix if you have a mental problem that you can't get past with therapy.
However, getting a couple of inches will have real and concrete benefits in dating. You won't be filtered out as much by picky women both online and in person. Some women who might be willing to settle for your height and would have a bad attitude about it even if you got together might become more accepting of you. You'll be taller on average in a mixed group of single people and instantly become more accepted as a prospective date. You will likely become taller than quite a large percentile of women. You'll make much better first impressions in person, which counts for a lot in dating.
Anyway, based on what I've seen around the forum over the years, there are definitely people with height dysphoria, height neurosis, or even obsession with proportions to the point where it's debilitating. I would say that for some it's almost certainly a mental illness. I don't think there is anything wrong with mental illnesses though. In fact, mental illnesses should be more accepted because acknowledging it is the first step to fixing it. If the general public accepted that height neurosis was a mental illness, maybe LL could even get covered by insurance some day. Most normal short men do not obsess over their height even if they are incredibly dissatisfied with their height, and only a tiny tiny fraction of short men will ever get LL. Most will figure out some other way to cope with their height, so I think for those who just can't accept it, there's definitely something different going on in the brain. It's an internal problem so maybe LL is truly the only fix.
So to reiterate, cosmetic LL helps with:
1) Dating, by a lot and this is the most worthwhile reason to get LL.
2) Mental illness, when you are obsessed with being short to the point where only getting taller can fix it.
3) You are not just short statured, but actually a dwarf.
If I was happily married I would never never never ever do LL. It would soooooo not be worth it.
All Facts...Damn✅
Quote from: BelowTheMean on July 10, 2021, 05:01:10 PMPeople don't get out of the way when you walk toward them. Is this really that big of a problem? Is getting 2-3" from LL even going to help with this?
Yes, it is a problem. It shows the disrespect short people get, even so far as being the victim of a minor violent act in public just walking down the street. And it gives you the knowledge it that will get worse if there's a bigger conflict and/or fewer witnesses. If that's how they act in broad daylight, by extension the message is: "I can crush you if I feel like it. You're inferior to me and if push comes to shove you will get shoved and I'll be the one doing the shoving."
And yes, getting 3" from LL to go from short to average is going to help with that. I haven't been treated like that in years.
QuoteBeing short is problematic in certain jobs. This is true; I can see how it would be hard to be a short door-to-door salesperson. I don't think LL will help much though.
There is implicit bias against short men, and short is associated with negativity. Yes, this is true, but is getting 2-3 inches through LL really going to help with that?
Same as above. If you can't imagine why going from short to average (or at least from very short to kind of short) won't help with these problems, I don't know what else to say. 
QuoteIn the middle of the China scene is the "foreign" patient old forum Admin? I thought he was from NY, but this guy has a British accent.
He's a Brit. He even used to brag about how inherantly great the British people like him are even though he (or his recent ancestors) immigrated there.
Quote from: Medium Drink Of Water on July 10, 2021, 09:12:48 PMYes, it is a problem. It shows the disrespect short people get, even so far as being the victim of a minor violent act in public just walking down the street. And it gives you the knowledge it that will get worse if there's a bigger conflict and/or fewer witnesses. If that's how they act in broad daylight, by extension the message is: "I can crush you if I feel like it. You're inferior to me and if push comes to shove you will get shoved and I'll be the one doing the shoving."
And yes, getting 3" from LL to go from short to average is going to help with that. I haven't been treated like that in years.I never really noticed it at 5'6" and I don't have the perception that random taller guys want to hurt me just because I'm short. Even on a crowded NYC street I don't feel like people walking toward me tried to force me to be the one who moved out of the way. Also, I don't like physical contact with strangers, so I am more than happy to move out of the way if the other person doesn't move, even if they are a shorter or weak-looking guy.
Quote from: Medium Drink Of Water on July 10, 2021, 09:12:48 PMSame as above. If you can't imagine why going from short to average (or at least from very short to kind of short) won't help with these problems, I don't know what else to say. I think 3 inches could help a little with the disrespect, but not that much because the problem seems to be more than just height. People of all heights can get bullied if they don't stand up for themselves. If you're really afraid of physical violence from tall guys, the money spend on LL could buy a lot of weapons for self-defense or martial arts classes.. just saying. I just don't see how it's worth it to do LL for something as vague as "disrespect from the public". Even if at your starting height other people were treating you with disrespect and now they aren't anymore, how much of it is from the actual gain in height, and how much of it is from your attitude of not feeling like a short man anymore? I would say the latter is more impactful for how others perceive and treat you.
Of course, I can only talk about things based on my personal experiences. If someone else has a different experience, then they are certainly likely to think about things differently. For anyone who wants to get LL, I just hope they do their research well and whatever problems they have with their height are things that can actually be fixed by this difficult and time-intensive surgery.
Quote from: BelowTheMean on July 11, 2021, 08:46:33 PMI never really noticed it at 5'6" and I don't have the perception that random taller guys want to hurt me just because I'm short. Even on a crowded NYC street I don't feel like people walking toward me tried to force me to be the one who moved out of the way. Also, I don't like physical contact with strangers, so I am more than happy to move out of the way if the other person doesn't move, even if they are a shorter or weak-looking guy.
They don't want to hurt you just because you're short. They'll hurt anyone and are more likely to do it to a smaller target, and will behave more aggressively toward one.
QuoteI think 3 inches could help a little with the disrespect, but not that much because the problem seems to be more than just height. People of all heights can get bullied if they don't stand up for themselves.
The problem is one of degree. Shorter or skinnier means a higher degree of disrespect. So when Bam Margera bullies his big but good-natured dad who won't fight back, yeah, the dad is getting bullied because he doesn't stand up for himself. Not really the point here.
QuoteIf you're really afraid of physical violence from tall guys, the money spend on LL could buy a lot of weapons for self-defense or martial arts classes.. just saying. I just don't see how it's worth it to do LL for something as vague as "disrespect from the public". Even if at your starting height other people were treating you with disrespect and now they aren't anymore, how much of it is from the actual gain in height, and how much of it is from your attitude of not feeling like a short man anymore? I would say the latter is more impactful for how others perceive and treat you.
Learning karate won't change the amount of disrespect you get, nor will it let a small wimp defeat a larger opponent, especially if the larger person has fighting skill. Those martial arts movies you watch are BS. And carrying around weapons is not always allowed.
100 percent of the increased respect I get is due to height.
Like I said, different life experiences.
I don't know if martial arts works and I don't carry a weapon around either, but I don't feel the need to because we live in a (mostly) civilized world. I don't feel the likelihood of getting into a physical confrontation is very high even for a short man. I also don't think any of the places I hang out in are very dangerous normally, and I don't recall ever being bullied or disrespected by men due to my height. I also don't notice any difference regarding how respectfully the average person treats me before and after surgery.
From my perspective, it would not have been worth the time and energy to get LL if it was to reduce the amount of disrespect/danger from being short, because I haven't experienced any disrespect from men for being short. Your life experience are probably different than mine. Whatever your perceived issues were with your starting height, if LL fixed them for you then I'm happy for you.
There's a reason women care about height: they know it matters, and I don't mean just to them.
In my experience at 5'4", rarely is the disrespect / bullying ever truly malicious or out in the open. It's much more subtle as in you can feel when someone is being patronising or treating you with less respect in a subconscious manner on their part. I also do quite well in my corporate career and run a successful side business so it's definitely not due to lack of ability career-wise. I definitely don't think that it was in my head as 5'4" is shorter than 97% of the male population, while now at 5'7" I'm taller than 24% of males in my country which, while still short, is a huge leap from basically being shorter than every male I come across and as such doesn't stick out to the point where people will disrespect or not take you seriously subconsciously. Your experience could have also been slightly different as you started off at almost 5'7" rather than 5'4".
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