Let's talk about the elephant in the room: Body dysmorphia

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Posted on Dec 10, 2023, 2:02 pm

#11

Quote from: Metaphyglv on December 10, 2023, 01:07:12 PMReaching a short but "normal" height after being an outlier all your life, its a huge change, even if you end up being just 5'5 after that, it's totally different than being 5'2. That initial height put you in a very unfavorable position, and plus 6 or 7 cm is a whole new word. For just "under average guys" who want to be average or taller, is just an upgrade, not a life changing surgery.

What you are implying is that if you are very short is not worth it to do this surgery, you are a lost case, go to live alone in the forest.
Nah, we are talking about individual people and their willingness to live their best life, not some utilitarianism equation. And even if is that the case, the amount of "utility" its a lot more in my case scenario than yours, i think.

There is no point telling people on this forum about all this.. For most of the people here, height is a big part of their identity and people are willing to risk anything.. Its like telling people with X money not to work hard as that stress can cause heart attack.. they won't stop.. they want to earn more than the next dude and the cycle continues

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Metaphyglv

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Posted on Dec 10, 2023, 2:33 pm

#12

Going to therapy literally will fix in little time the madness of guys above 5'9 doing a CLL procedure, they don't realize that their height neurosis it's literally a neurosis, something inside them and their subjectivity.
If they say to other people irl their plans of breaking their legs to reach 6 ft, i dont think that anybody could take that like another thing than a weird joke

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sxxa

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Posted on Dec 10, 2023, 2:59 pm

#13

Quote from: Metaphyglv on December 10, 2023, 01:07:12 PMReaching a short but "normal" height after being an outlier all your life, its a huge change, even if you end up being just 5'5 after that, it's totally different than being 5'2. That initial height put you in a very unfavorable position, and plus 6 or 7 cm is a whole new word. For just "under average guys" who want to be average or taller, is just an upgrade, not a life changing surgery.

What you are implying is that if you are very short is not worth it to do this surgery, you are a lost case, go to live alone in the forest.
Nah, we are talking about individual people and their willingness to live their best life, not some utilitarianism equation. And even if is that the case, the amount of "utility" its a lot more in my case scenario than yours, i think.

To each their own. But, again, I clearly stated that's my opinion no need to get salty about it. I personally don't see logic go from extremely short to really short, I understand for individuals it can be life changing but it still doesn't change the fact that they will still be short regardless, it's not easy to grasp but is reality. Wheter you like it or not.

Same apply for people who are already way over the average levels. Makes 0 sense in the terms I already discussed.

You can argue back and forth for all I care, facts remain undisputable. This surgery surely can change lives but that's no the point I made.

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Metaphyglv

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Posted on Dec 10, 2023, 3:42 pm

#14

Quote from: sxxa on December 10, 2023, 02:59:18 PMI personally don't see logic go from extremely short to really short, I understand for individuals it can be life changing but it still doesn't change the fact that they will still be short regardless, it's not easy to grasp but is reality. Wheter you like it or not.

It's a huge change between going from 5'2 to 5'5, you get taller than the average woman (or at least the same height), taller than the average child, height stop being a disability to make some things, and so on. To me, CLL in that range is it has the biggest impact, psychologically you stop feeling like a child to become "the short dude", and for any man that is life changing, life saving in some cases.

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sxxa

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Posted on Dec 10, 2023, 6:28 pm

#15

Quote from: Metaphyglv on December 10, 2023, 03:42:58 PMIt's a huge change between going from 5'2 to 5'5, you get taller than the average woman (or at least the same height), taller than the average child, height stop being a disability to make some things, and so on. To me, CLL in that range is it has the biggest impact, psychologically you stop feeling like a child to become "the short dude", and for any man that is life changing, life saving in some cases.

And I totally agree with you, it can be a huge change to an individual, yes, BUT for the standards and society it'd be short regardless. I'm all for people who feel the need of undergoing the procedure, I don't see any reason to not to do it regardless of height (or my opinion), at the end of the day every person can make the decision they feel the best for them, it's just for me, I wouldn't do it if I were 5'2 or 5'10 for example, it's pointless. I just like to see thinks for a more pragmatic/realistic view. Can this surgery help you to feel better? Absolutely! Doesn't matter your height, but reality remains. We can argue but at the end of the day a short person will be a short person, a tall person will be a tall person. I strongly believe the best range of outcomes is from 5'6 to 5'9, you will go from short/average to above average, and that in my opinion is the best possible scenario in terms of risk-reward. And remember this surgery is not risk free, the more you increase the more risks you could have so is not black and white.

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finertoga

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Posted on Dec 10, 2023, 11:58 pm

#16

Quote from: MaxwellGilmour on December 10, 2023, 08:03:25 AMI would argue that the benefit of LL differs a bit qualitatively at different heights.
Height obeys a normal variation, which means that sampling a group of people (males or females) from a population will tend to a graph like the one below.

A central peak will reflect the most frequent height of the population. Taking a step left of the peak moves you to a lower height. The height of the curve reflects the frequency the underlying height has in the population. This is slightly simplified, but works for the argument.

At a few steps to the left, we have people with mildly/moderately short posture (like 5'8"). They are near average, but still below it. Having LL at this height will move them near the peak, or even past it. Due to the range of the normal variation traversed by this height increase (ie the most "frequent" and steepest region), the practical effect is: moving from being "short" to "tall", surpassing a significant fraction of the population, height-wise – that is a huge qualitative benefit.

At lower heights (conventional short posture), the height increase gained by LL moves the patient from a point of being an "extreme statistical outlier" (or near it) to "within the normal variation." They likely will not get "tall", at least not with one lengthening – but they will become "normal". I reckon that is good reasoning for undergoing lengthening, too.

Maxwell

Beautifully put. They both have large benefits but are for different purposes. The statistical outlier is treated like a subhuman freak. His goal is not to be tall, but to reach a normal short height such that he can lead a normal life.

The 5’5”-5’8” guys goals are to go from short to average, short to tall, or average to tall. Each of these confers its own set of benefits due to the significant change of position in the distribution. You basically are entering a new “height class” if you will, the benefits of which can’t be understated.

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Quote from: MaxwellGilmour on December 10, 2023, 08:03:25 AMI would argue that the benefit of LL differs a bit qualitatively at different heights.
Height obeys a normal variation, which means that sampling a group of people (males or females) from a population will tend to a graph like the one below.

A central peak will reflect the most frequent height of the population. Taking a step left of the peak moves you to a lower height. The height of the curve reflects the frequency the underlying height has in the population. This is slightly simplified, but works for the argument.

At a few steps to the left, we have people with mildly/moderately short posture (like 5'8"). They are near average, but still below it. Having LL at this height will move them near the peak, or even past it. Due to the range of the normal variation traversed by this height increase (ie the most "frequent" and steepest region), the practical effect is: moving from being "short" to "tall", surpassing a significant fraction of the population, height-wise – that is a huge qualitative benefit.

At lower heights (conventional short posture), the height increase gained by LL moves the patient from a point of being an "extreme statistical outlier" (or near it) to "within the normal variation." They likely will not get "tall", at least not with one lengthening – but they will become "normal". I reckon that is good reasoning for undergoing lengthening, too.

Maxwell

Beautifully put. They both have large benefits but are for different purposes. The statistical outlier is treated like a subhuman freak. His goal is not to be tall, but to reach a normal short height such that he can lead a normal life.

The 5’5”-5’8” guys goals are to go from short to average, short to tall, or average to tall. Each of these confers its own set of benefits due to the significant change of position in the distribution. You basically are entering a new “height class” if you will, the benefits of which can’t be understated.

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finertoga

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Posted on Dec 11, 2023, 12:08 am

#17

Quote from: sxxa on December 10, 2023, 06:28:02 PMAnd I totally agree with you, it can be a huge change to an individual, yes, BUT for the standards and society it'd be short regardless. I'm all for people who feel the need of undergoing the procedure, I don't see any reason to not to do it regardless of height (or my opinion), at the end of the day every person can make the decision they feel the best for them, it's just for me, I wouldn't do it if I were 5'2 or 5'10 for example, it's pointless. I just like to see thinks for a more pragmatic/realistic view. Can this surgery help you to feel better? Absolutely! Doesn't matter your height, but reality remains. We can argue but at the end of the day a short person will be a short person, a tall person will be a tall person. I strongly believe the best range of outcomes is from 5'6 to 5'9, you will go from short/average to above average, and that in my opinion is the best possible scenario in terms of risk-reward. And remember this surgery is not risk free, the more you increase the more risks you could have so is not black and white.

Since you’re 5’9” your perspective is limited and flawed in regards to this. I believe I can give some insight as I have a 5’2” friend and I am about 5’5.5”. My friend is treated like a child, mocked for his height, not taken seriously by his peers. Dating is the least of his worries. He really struggles to just feel like a normal person. Most of the time his height comes up in conversation and even if he doesn’t want to think about it it gets brought up. He was bullied and treated terribly in high school.

I on the other hand experienced limited bullying about my height, although once in a while i do get snide remarks from others but it’s rare. I get rejected often for my height by women, and I feel very insecure in social settings but rarely does it come up as a topic of conversation. What I am trying to say is that if I really wanted to, I could live a “normal” life, it would just be significantly harder than someone who is 5’8”-5’9”. I can walk around and while people will obviously think I’m short, I’m not looked at as a freak. I’m within the normal distribution.

Do not discount the negative experiences of being an outlier. What you’re saying about being not worth it is like telling a burn victim who’s disfigured not to get reconstructive surgery because they’ll still be “ugly.” For the burn victim it’s not about looking attractive, it’s about looking normal. Two completely different goals.

Edit Post

Quote from: sxxa on December 10, 2023, 06:28:02 PMAnd I totally agree with you, it can be a huge change to an individual, yes, BUT for the standards and society it'd be short regardless. I'm all for people who feel the need of undergoing the procedure, I don't see any reason to not to do it regardless of height (or my opinion), at the end of the day every person can make the decision they feel the best for them, it's just for me, I wouldn't do it if I were 5'2 or 5'10 for example, it's pointless. I just like to see thinks for a more pragmatic/realistic view. Can this surgery help you to feel better? Absolutely! Doesn't matter your height, but reality remains. We can argue but at the end of the day a short person will be a short person, a tall person will be a tall person. I strongly believe the best range of outcomes is from 5'6 to 5'9, you will go from short/average to above average, and that in my opinion is the best possible scenario in terms of risk-reward. And remember this surgery is not risk free, the more you increase the more risks you could have so is not black and white.

Since you’re 5’9” your perspective is limited and flawed in regards to this. I believe I can give some insight as I have a 5’2” friend and I am about 5’5.5”. My friend is treated like a child, mocked for his height, not taken seriously by his peers. Dating is the least of his worries. He really struggles to just feel like a normal person. Most of the time his height comes up in conversation and even if he doesn’t want to think about it it gets brought up. He was bullied and treated terribly in high school.

I on the other hand experienced limited bullying about my height, although once in a while i do get snide remarks from others but it’s rare. I get rejected often for my height by women, and I feel very insecure in social settings but rarely does it come up as a topic of conversation. What I am trying to say is that if I really wanted to, I could live a “normal” life, it would just be significantly harder than someone who is 5’8”-5’9”. I can walk around and while people will obviously think I’m short, I’m not looked at as a freak. I’m within the normal distribution.

Do not discount the negative experiences of being an outlier. What you’re saying about being not worth it is like telling a burn victim who’s disfigured not to get reconstructive surgery because they’ll still be “ugly.” For the burn victim it’s not about looking attractive, it’s about looking normal. Two completely different goals.

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sxxa

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Posted on Dec 11, 2023, 12:57 am

#18

Quote from: finertoga on December 11, 2023, 12:08:24 AM
Since you’re 5’9” your perspective is limited and flawed in regards to this. I believe I can give some insight as I have a 5’2” friend and I am about 5’5.5”. My friend is treated like a child, mocked for his height, not taken seriously by his peers. Dating is the least of his worries. He really struggles to just feel like a normal person. Most of the time his height comes up in conversation and even if he doesn’t want to think about it it gets brought up. He was bullied and treated terribly in high school.

I on the other hand experienced limited bullying about my height, although once in a while i do get snide remarks from others but it’s rare. I get rejected often for my height by women, and I feel very insecure in social settings but rarely does it come up as a topic of conversation. What I am trying to say is that if I really wanted to, I could live a “normal” life, it would just be significantly harder than someone who is 5’8”-5’9”. I can walk around and while people will obviously think I’m short, I’m not looked at as a freak. I’m within the normal distribution.

Do not discount the negative experiences of being an outlier. What you’re saying about being not worth it is like telling a burn victim who’s disfigured not to get reconstructive surgery because they’ll still be “ugly.” For the burn victim it’s not about looking attractive, it’s about looking normal. Two completely different goals.

Don't get me wrong I'm really aware of how bad it is for short people, even though I haven't faced these kind of problems, I do have some body dysmorphia and really feel uncomfortable with my height even if is "normal". In fact, taller people could feel dysmorphic, but obviously that's rare, as I already stated, my opinion exclude the mental/psique factor from the equation, I'm specifically talking who would benefit the most undergoing the procedure in terms of outcome, risk-reward. It's an objective fact someone going from 5'8" to 5'11" would have the absolute best out of this. From almost average to very well above average than let's say your friend (for the sake of the argument) who is 5'2" and ending up as 5'5". He still be really short and even tho he would feel better, I personally believe his situation would go from bad to a little less bad, ergo I don't see it as a good outcome, but again that's my own personal perspective.

Edit Post

Quote from: finertoga on December 11, 2023, 12:08:24 AM
Since you’re 5’9” your perspective is limited and flawed in regards to this. I believe I can give some insight as I have a 5’2” friend and I am about 5’5.5”. My friend is treated like a child, mocked for his height, not taken seriously by his peers. Dating is the least of his worries. He really struggles to just feel like a normal person. Most of the time his height comes up in conversation and even if he doesn’t want to think about it it gets brought up. He was bullied and treated terribly in high school.

I on the other hand experienced limited bullying about my height, although once in a while i do get snide remarks from others but it’s rare. I get rejected often for my height by women, and I feel very insecure in social settings but rarely does it come up as a topic of conversation. What I am trying to say is that if I really wanted to, I could live a “normal” life, it would just be significantly harder than someone who is 5’8”-5’9”. I can walk around and while people will obviously think I’m short, I’m not looked at as a freak. I’m within the normal distribution.

Do not discount the negative experiences of being an outlier. What you’re saying about being not worth it is like telling a burn victim who’s disfigured not to get reconstructive surgery because they’ll still be “ugly.” For the burn victim it’s not about looking attractive, it’s about looking normal. Two completely different goals.

Don't get me wrong I'm really aware of how bad it is for short people, even though I haven't faced these kind of problems, I do have some body dysmorphia and really feel uncomfortable with my height even if is "normal". In fact, taller people could feel dysmorphic, but obviously that's rare, as I already stated, my opinion exclude the mental/psique factor from the equation, I'm specifically talking who would benefit the most undergoing the procedure in terms of outcome, risk-reward. It's an objective fact someone going from 5'8" to 5'11" would have the absolute best out of this. From almost average to very well above average than let's say your friend (for the sake of the argument) who is 5'2" and ending up as 5'5". He still be really short and even tho he would feel better, I personally believe his situation would go from bad to a little less bad, ergo I don't see it as a good outcome, but again that's my own personal perspective.

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finertoga

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Posted on Dec 11, 2023, 1:12 am

#19

Quote from: sxxa on December 11, 2023, 12:57:47 AMDon't get me wrong I'm really aware of how bad it is for short people, even though I haven't faced these kind of problems, I do have some body dysmorphia and really feel uncomfortable with my height even if is "normal". In fact, taller people could feel dysmorphic, but obviously that's rare, as I already stated, my opinion exclude the mental/psique factor from the equation, I'm specifically talking who would benefit the most undergoing the procedure in terms of outcome, risk-reward. It's an objective fact someone going from 5'8" to 5'11" would have the absolute best out of this. From almost average to very well above average than let's say your friend (for the sake of the argument) who is 5'2" and ending up as 5'5". He still be really short and even tho he would feel better, I personally believe his situation would go from bad to a little less bad, ergo I don't see it as a good outcome, but again that's my own personal perspective.

I guess it depends on how you measure benefit. If you take simple quantitative measures like income and number of dates/rejections, then I would agree with you. But how do you measure bullying? Would someone measure the number of negative comments they receive on a daily basis? How about the number of times height is mentioned in conversation? How do you measure “feeling like an outcast”? The point is that these measures are hard to quantify and thus we don’t have good data to compare at various heights, but that doesn’t mean these aren’t important.

Let’s take a look at plastic surgery for example. Plastic surgery is not just for beautification. Plastic surgeons do reconstructive surgery on burn victims, car accident victims, victims of mauling, and people who have horrible disfigurements. Here’s a gun accident victim https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2218832/Richard-Lee-Norris-face-transplant-Gun-accident-victim-given-amazing-operation-US-doctors.html who got a face transplant, for example. Now wouldn’t you say this person has gained an enormous benefit?

On the flip side, you have average to below average looking people who beautify themselves with plastic surgery to look like models. In both cases, there is a large benefit to be gained. It’s just different.

Obviously being 5’2” isn’t the same as being a disfigurement victim but you get my point. In both cases the individual is simply looking to be more normal, while others are looking for “enhancement” to look more attractive.

Edit Post

Quote from: sxxa on December 11, 2023, 12:57:47 AMDon't get me wrong I'm really aware of how bad it is for short people, even though I haven't faced these kind of problems, I do have some body dysmorphia and really feel uncomfortable with my height even if is "normal". In fact, taller people could feel dysmorphic, but obviously that's rare, as I already stated, my opinion exclude the mental/psique factor from the equation, I'm specifically talking who would benefit the most undergoing the procedure in terms of outcome, risk-reward. It's an objective fact someone going from 5'8" to 5'11" would have the absolute best out of this. From almost average to very well above average than let's say your friend (for the sake of the argument) who is 5'2" and ending up as 5'5". He still be really short and even tho he would feel better, I personally believe his situation would go from bad to a little less bad, ergo I don't see it as a good outcome, but again that's my own personal perspective.

I guess it depends on how you measure benefit. If you take simple quantitative measures like income and number of dates/rejections, then I would agree with you. But how do you measure bullying? Would someone measure the number of negative comments they receive on a daily basis? How about the number of times height is mentioned in conversation? How do you measure “feeling like an outcast”? The point is that these measures are hard to quantify and thus we don’t have good data to compare at various heights, but that doesn’t mean these aren’t important.

Let’s take a look at plastic surgery for example. Plastic surgery is not just for beautification. Plastic surgeons do reconstructive surgery on burn victims, car accident victims, victims of mauling, and people who have horrible disfigurements. Here’s a gun accident victim https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2218832/Richard-Lee-Norris-face-transplant-Gun-accident-victim-given-amazing-operation-US-doctors.html who got a face transplant, for example. Now wouldn’t you say this person has gained an enormous benefit?

On the flip side, you have average to below average looking people who beautify themselves with plastic surgery to look like models. In both cases, there is a large benefit to be gained. It’s just different.

Obviously being 5’2” isn’t the same as being a disfigurement victim but you get my point. In both cases the individual is simply looking to be more normal, while others are looking for “enhancement” to look more attractive.

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RB

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Posted on Dec 11, 2023, 2:02 am

#20

I can offer my perspective on this as someone who has done the surgery and gone from around 5’4” to 5’7”. It has been a while since I’ve even been on this forum mainly because I don’t think about this surgery or height in any great detail anymore. Only reason I have stopped by is because I just had my nails removed. Based on that this surgery has totally changed my life and was the best thing I have ever done.

To give some context, when I was 5’4” I used to receive multiple comments about my height per day mainly from people I knew but sometimes complete strangers. I always felt like I wasn’t taken seriously in certain situations due to my height despite having an attractive face and other things going for me. It turned out it wasn’t in my head because after getting to 5’7”, my interactions with people have completley changed and my height is no longer so glaring and th first thing people notice about me. I’m still short, but I hear comments about my height maybe once a month or less now compared to daily and when I do hear something it’s more along the lines of a light joke, whereas people used to refer to me as tiny and juvanalise me before and it used to bother me so much.

People at taller starting heights (5’6 and up etc) will still benefit greatly from this surgery but it won’t be the life changing result that you think it will be. Going from looking freakishly short to on the taller side or short has allowed me to live a normal life and not worry about my height being a barrier in social and business interactions. Dating wise, I had a gf when I did this and am still with her so can’t say much there but attention and the way women speak to me has definitely changed.

That is just my experience but I think the higher your starting height, the less “life changing” the benefit even if it will undoubtably still improve things for you.

Edit Post

I can offer my perspective on this as someone who has done the surgery and gone from around 5’4” to 5’7”. It has been a while since I’ve even been on this forum mainly because I don’t think about this surgery or height in any great detail anymore. Only reason I have stopped by is because I just had my nails removed. Based on that this surgery has totally changed my life and was the best thing I have ever done.

To give some context, when I was 5’4” I used to receive multiple comments about my height per day mainly from people I knew but sometimes complete strangers. I always felt like I wasn’t taken seriously in certain situations due to my height despite having an attractive face and other things going for me. It turned out it wasn’t in my head because after getting to 5’7”, my interactions with people have completley changed and my height is no longer so glaring and th first thing people notice about me. I’m still short, but I hear comments about my height maybe once a month or less now compared to daily and when I do hear something it’s more along the lines of a light joke, whereas people used to refer to me as tiny and juvanalise me before and it used to bother me so much.

People at taller starting heights (5’6 and up etc) will still benefit greatly from this surgery but it won’t be the life changing result that you think it will be. Going from looking freakishly short to on the taller side or short has allowed me to live a normal life and not worry about my height being a barrier in social and business interactions. Dating wise, I had a gf when I did this and am still with her so can’t say much there but attention and the way women speak to me has definitely changed.

That is just my experience but I think the higher your starting height, the less “life changing” the benefit even if it will undoubtably still improve things for you.

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