Quote from: myloginacct on March 22, 2018, 05:40:36 PMUh, my whole point is there isn't almost anything he can't fix with his money. He can get surgery for his height, his face, his hair, get the best personal trainers, with the best nutrition and workout plans, all up to a point he becomes physically attractive - all while keeping his influence, wealth, power, and intelligence. Maybe he'll never be as physically attractive as the homeless guy you're imagining, but he will still be legitimately attractive. The homeless guy would most likely never get anywhere near his wealth or social influence, and IQ (or intelligence, if you prefer) can't be significantly increased. And no matter how you spin it, no CEO woman, or maybe a pioneering science researcher, would rather constitute a family with a homeless guy over one of the most powerful, successful, and richest men in the world. In the way I see it, it's simple logic, and you guys are stuck in your own reality. I can't make it any clearer than this. I can only assume you all would rather have easy access to as many "hot women" as you possibly could, or something to that effect.
Anyway, each to their own, and I wasn't the one to start with the ad hominem. I'll just agree to disagree with your views.
And I do generally agree with your points about IQ!
But this isn't what the thread is about.
There's numerous problems with your assertions here
1.) Surgery cannot and will not ever successfully emulate natural good looks. Hair is probably the most fixable of the bunch at present and in the future (given upcoming solutions for hair loss), but again, there are VERY defined limits to what can and cannot be done with surgery.
A man who is decidedly facially unattractive (like Mark Zuckerberg) cannot and will not become conventionally attractive (i.e. male model looks) using plastic surgery. The technology simply isn't that advanced.
He can't and won't become tall either, not without visibly deforming himself.
In fact, I would argue that rich people who are also famous media icons like Mark Zuckerberg in fact cannot ANY surgeries to fix their looks AT ALL. Consider:
Everyone KNOWS what Mark Zuckerberg looks like right now, without having had any surgical procedures done to alter his face, height, hair, etc. If he were to get LL or facial surgery, everyone would notice IMMEDIATELY because there are hundreds of pictures of him taken from every conceivable angle all over the internet. His status makes it literally impossible to physically augment himself without facing severe social judgment and repercussions due to virtue signalling culture leading to him being criticized, shamed, mocked, etc to oblivion for his "insecurity".
Imagine if Justin Bieber had LL done to go from being 5'7" to being 5'10". Do you seriously think people wouldn't notice? Society at large is MASSIVELY turned off when men (applies to MEN primarily, women are largely given a free pass no matter how they alter their looks thanks to feminist "empowerment" culture) do ANYTHING to fraud or otherwise misrepresent their genetic value. Virtue-signallers pretend they've "lost respect" for the individual due to their "insecurity", but what they actually feel is disgust and innate revulsion: "the nerve of that undesirable man, trying to cheat his genetic destiny!"
As far as a female CEO or researcher or what-have-you not wanting to "constitute" a family with a homeless guy: you don't have any evidence this is true other than your own hopes, but it doesn't matter anyway, because even if it were true, the fact of the matter is this type of woman is generally not conventionally physically attractive (women in the STEM field, and corporate-ladder types, tend to be very frumpy. I don't think this really needs to be substantiated; just take a look at any year's graduating class in the STEM fields and look at the women).
Good-looking men generally don't care very much about whether or not undesirable women like them because they have tons of DESIRABLE women to choose from. I doubt male models, homeless or not, lose any sleep because frumpy Betty the Chemist has sour grapes syndrome and doesn't want him because he's "not intelligent enough" (whatever that means).
The Change in Height Around the World Over the Last 100 Years
What we have now probably isn't as bad as you think it is. Maybe I could find better, but I didn't want to spend too much time googling images. I just want to link these for now:
As for the other points, I don't really feel like continuing with the discussion when it's not the subject of the thread. My mindset is apparently completely different than the one you guys have here. I place more value on "Betty the Chemist/CEO" than the 9/10 "instagram model" or whatever you guys have in mind. So, yeah.
I wish Mark could see this conversation!
Quote from: Android on March 23, 2018, 03:22:57 AMI wish Mark could see this conversation!
He could actually achieve a much better body transformation too, if this scrawny Polish kid did it.
Quote from: myloginacct on March 23, 2018, 01:21:26 AMWhat we have now probably isn't as bad as you think it is. Maybe I could find better, but I didn't want to spend too much time googling images. I just want to link these for now:
I don't dispute that present surgical techniques are effective to a certain extent in increasing a person's attractiveness above its baseline. What I said was:
QuoteA man who is decidedly facially unattractive (like Mark Zuckerberg) cannot and will not become conventionally attractive (i.e. male model looks) using plastic surgery.
This is entirely true. None of the men (or women) you posted, nor indeed any of those whose facial plastic surgery results can be found on the internet (that I have seen, at least), has ever achieved anything close to "model looks" using conventional craniofacial surgery.
Surgery CAN and (if you select a good surgeon) very often DOES "bump people up" a single tier; that is, the following is possible:
Unattractive -> Below average
Below average -> Average
Average -> Above average
And, theoretically,
Above-average -> Good-looking (though I've never seen an example of it)
In SOME select cases, it's possible to go up 2 "tiers" (from "unattractive" to "average") when the root cause of your unattractiveness is a single major craniofacial deformity (like some of the people in your pics had). For most people, there isn't just one single flaw separating them from being above average or good looking.
Another big factor in the results shown by your pics, and something that helps Asian plastic surgery patients a LOT, is the fact that beauty standards in Asian cultures generally tend to focus on things being SMALLER and SLIMMER. Notice how in the pics you posted, in almost every single case, the person's skull/face gets SMALLER in the "after" picture, mostly because their jaws get shaved down.
It's much, much, MUCH easier to remove/shave down EXISTING bone than it is to install pseudo-bone (implants) that realistically and convincingly simulate natural bone structure, especially in areas where bones are generally very intricately shaped, tightly packed, or located in or around major and delicate organ systems such as the nose, eyes, etc (infra/supraorbital region in the eyes, zygoma and maxillary area in the midface, etc).
This is a massive, massive limitation of conventional facial cosmetic surgery that is the central reason why I say craniofacial surgery can never emulate natural good looks.
Haha, didn't mean so that he can take advice, but I just wonder how he'd react. Bunch of strangers debating your height, money, success, and cosmetic surgery options (while he battles the Cambridge Analytica scandal).
Quote from: Android on March 23, 2018, 04:47:20 AMHaha, didn't mean so that he can take advice, but I just wonder how he'd react. Bunch of strangers debating your height, money, success, and cosmetic surgery options (while he battles the Cambridge Analytica scandal).
Yeah, Zuckerberg was a bad one given the recent context. But give me a young Bill Gates, Jeff Bezos, or any super successful shorter than average guy... I'll pick that over a homeless 6'2 dude.
Going back to original subject of the thread, though: one the reasons I theorized for the stagnation in height in India was the prevalence of vegetarian diets. However, look at Pakistani men 100 years later! It was possibly the country with no gains in height, and they're Muslims there, with much less qualms about consuming meat - I'd also guess access to meat only became easier in the last 100 years. Pakistanis and Indians are generally very close genetically, so maybe meat consumption isn't that important to make one group significantly taller than another. Genetics and healthcare still seem play the major role.
Too bad our Indian posters aren't as active anymore, though... I'd like to ask them if Indian Muslims are generally taller than Indian Hindus.
Quote from: myloginacct on March 26, 2018, 04:44:29 PMGoing back to original subject of the thread, though: one the reasons I theorized for the stagnation in height in India was the prevalence of vegetarian diets. However, look at Pakistani men 100 years later! It was possibly the country with no gains in height, and they're Muslims there, with much less qualms about consuming meat - I'd also guess access to meat only became easier in the last 100 years. Pakistanis and Indians are generally very close genetically, so maybe meat consumption isn't that important to make one group significantly taller than another. Genetics and healthcare still seem play the major role.
I think healthcare is the major factor here if we take into account that both nations are from the same genetic pool.
Quote from: ivan on March 26, 2018, 05:15:18 PMI think healthcare is the major factor here if we take into account that both nations are from the same genetic pool.
I agree. I used generally, though, because that region of the world has so many tribes and different ethnic groups. The main genetic pool is still mostly the same, however, as we've pointed out.
For example, I'm no expert on this, but I know of the Hazaras (partially Mongols), the Pashtuns, etc.
In fact, I've just found this one neat map about the ethnic groups in Afghanistan and Pakistan.
Oh dear, I can't link to the wikipedia article about Pashtuns because the forum filters "sht" to "crap".
How nice.
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