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Quote from: ZUCC420 on August 21, 2020, 08:27:00 PMhttp://journalofprolotherapy.com/ligament-injury-and-healing-an-overview-of-current-clinical-concepts/#:~:text=in%20the%20world.-,Ligaments%20heal%20through%20a%20distinct%20sequence%20of%20cellular%20events%20that,is%20often%20slow%20and%20incomplete.

These are just the ligaments, other soft tissues also includes muscles, tendons, fascia, nerves, fibrous tissues, fat, blood vessels, and synovial membranes. Ancient Ilizarov technique is just too traumatic to our fragile bodies compared to the natural healthy growing that comes from growth hormone when the growth plates aren't calcified.

What is your point? This does not contradicts anything that I said.

My point is that the muscles and other soft tissue are not just stretched, new soft tissue is created. Of course in some cases the  tensile strength won't be the same. I even gave one example in my post (scar tissue due to too fast lengthening).

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Quote from: Bruce Wayne on August 21, 2020, 08:32:22 PMThat's not exactly what I remember from the doctors I contact. But maybe I'll check again.

Although I had consultations with a good amount of the most well known LL doctors before my LL, I didn't get this information only from them. I did a very thorough scientific review of LL before I decided to actually do it. I have an academic background, so that was normal for me. I spent months reading all academic papers about LL that I could, specially the ones written by potential doctors (Betz, Paley, Guichet - they all have written tons of papers about LL).

Let me show you a very old paper (from 1987) that explicitly tells us that new soft tissue is created during LL. This is a well know fact for DECADES. It really drives me crazy that in this forum (and in the old one) people have this misconception that we are just stretching our legs during LL. That's insane! Here's the article (ScienceDirect link, then Pdf link):

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/000712268790186X#!

https://www.jprasurg.com/article/0007-1226(87)90186-X/pdf

Here's the relevant part:

In many of Ilizarov’s patients and those of other
authors (Krjur et al., 1985) there are reports of bone
being regenerated in limbs to lengths of more than
20 cm, by using single or multiple osteotomies. The
successful formation of this “regenerated tissue”
depends on an ideal relationship between the
osteoplastic capacity of the tissue that has been
stimulated and the degree of distractive stimulus
that has been applied. This will only take place if
the bone remains well vascularised.
Ilizarov has extended the concept of “organic
regeneration” of bone to other tissues (e.g. muscle,
tendon, blood vessels, nerve and skin), recognising
in all of them a capacity to grow in response to a
distractive stimulus, a principle accepted in the use
of soft tissue expanders. In practice, any living
tissue which is mechanically stressed responds by
growing in the direction of the stress.

And as I said before, this is just one of TONS of academic papers about this.
LL creates new soft tissue. Period.
 

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Quote from: BetzLandLiberator on August 21, 2020, 09:18:11 PMAlthough I had consultations with a good amount of the most well known LL doctors before my LL, I didn't get this information only from them. I did a very thorough scientific review of LL before I decided to actually do it. I have an academic background, so that was normal for me. I spent months reading all academic papers about LL that I could, specially the ones written by potential doctors (Betz, Paley, Guichet - they all have written tons of papers about LL).

Let me show you a very old paper (from 1987) that explicitly tells us that new soft tissue is created during LL. This is a well know fact for DECADES. It really drives me crazy that in this forum (and in the old one) people have this misconception that we are just stretching our legs during LL. That's insane! Here's the article (ScienceDirect link, then Pdf link):

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/000712268790186X#!

https://www.jprasurg.com/article/0007-1226(87)90186-X/pdf

Here's the relevant part:

In many of Ilizarov’s patients and those of other
authors (Krjur et al., 1985) there are reports of bone
being regenerated in limbs to lengths of more than
20 cm, by using single or multiple osteotomies. The
successful formation of this “regenerated tissue”
depends on an ideal relationship between the
osteoplastic capacity of the tissue that has been
stimulated and the degree of distractive stimulus
that has been applied. This will only take place if
the bone remains well vascularised.
Ilizarov has extended the concept of “organic
regeneration” of bone to other tissues (e.g. muscle,
tendon, blood vessels, nerve and skin), recognising
in all of them a capacity to grow in response to a
distractive stimulus, a principle accepted in the use
of soft tissue expanders. In practice, any living
tissue which is mechanically stressed responds by
growing in the direction of the stress.

And as I said before, this is just one of TONS of academic papers about this.
LL creates new soft tissue. Period.

What about nerves and tendons? And so why there is a misconception of not being as strong/athletic as before and the perception of  one who does LL simply will not be the same ever again?
I wanna know this : i dont have any bone / muscle / tendon / nerve pains in my legs. Nor stiffness. My legs feels comfortable and loose. Will i be like that after 2-3 years post LL?

Sorry for asking stupid questions. ( that is because i’m little stupid)

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Quote from: BetzLandLiberator on August 21, 2020, 09:18:11 PMAlthough I had consultations with a good amount of the most well known LL doctors before my LL, I didn't get this information only from them. I did a very thorough scientific review of LL before I decided to actually do it. I have an academic background, so that was normal for me. I spent months reading all academic papers about LL that I could, specially the ones written by potential doctors (Betz, Paley, Guichet - they all have written tons of papers about LL).

Let me show you a very old paper (from 1987) that explicitly tells us that new soft tissue is created during LL. This is a well know fact for DECADES. It really drives me crazy that in this forum (and in the old one) people have this misconception that we are just stretching our legs during LL. That's insane! Here's the article (ScienceDirect link, then Pdf link):

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/000712268790186X#!

https://www.jprasurg.com/article/0007-1226(87)90186-X/pdf

Here's the relevant part:

In many of Ilizarov’s patients and those of other
authors (Krjur et al., 1985) there are reports of bone
being regenerated in limbs to lengths of more than
20 cm, by using single or multiple osteotomies. The
successful formation of this “regenerated tissue”
depends on an ideal relationship between the
osteoplastic capacity of the tissue that has been
stimulated and the degree of distractive stimulus
that has been applied. This will only take place if
the bone remains well vascularised.
Ilizarov has extended the concept of “organic
regeneration” of bone to other tissues (e.g. muscle,
tendon, blood vessels, nerve and skin), recognising
in all of them a capacity to grow in response to a
distractive stimulus, a principle accepted in the use
of soft tissue expanders. In practice, any living
tissue which is mechanically stressed responds by
growing in the direction of the stress.

And as I said before, this is just one of TONS of academic papers about this.
LL creates new soft tissue. Period.
 

This is a very interesting information. Probably most of us had this idea but it's useful to have a scientific confirmation

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Hi BetzLandLiberator,

Many thanks for your contribution.

Would it be possible if we can get a video of you walking/jogging, please?.

If you’re worried about privacy then you can wear a face mask or something similar? Perhaps with a hoody. You can just leave your phone on a stool/table/chair - similar to what Movie has done in the past.

It would really help us prospective patients!

Thanks,

All the best

Edit Post

Quote from: BeYourBest on August 22, 2020, 01:24:43 AMHi BetzLandLiberator,

Many thanks for your contribution.

Would it be possible if we can get a video of you walking/jogging, please?.

If you’re worried about privacy then you can wear a face mask or something similar? Perhaps with a hoody. You can just leave your phone on a stool/table/chair - similar to what Movie has done in the past.

It would really help us prospective patients!

Thanks,

All the best

Sorry, I'm not gonna post a video for me here.
I think I already revealed too much of my privacy to help people here.
But a video or photo is too much.

The best way to see a recovered LL veteran is to ask a LL doctor to see some patients that are coming back to take their nail out.
When I went back to Germany to have my nails taken out I talked with a good number of prospective Betz's patients.

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BetzLandLiberator,

Could you please check your DM's?

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Quote from: BetzLandLiberator on August 21, 2020, 09:07:09 PMWhat is your point? This does not contradicts anything that I said.

My point is that the muscles and other soft tissue are not just stretched, new soft tissue is created. Of course in some cases the  tensile strength won't be the same. I even gave one example in my post (scar tissue due to too fast lengthening).

Quote from: BetzLandLiberator on August 21, 2020, 04:24:01 PMThis is well researched (lots of academic papers about this, experiments done in rabbits, etc...) and one of the things I was careful in researching before I decided to do LL. I would never had done LL if it only stretched the soft tissues.

I see, with all the "I was careful in researching" you did before undergoing LL, the only thing that ticked you off and that you absolutely needed to make sure wasn't the case was soft tissue stretching. Not the other heap of potential dire straits such as :

1) tensile strength reduction of ligaments
2) susceptible to tendon/ligament tears and ruptures
3) unwieldy center of mass that holds back potential
4) uneven weight distribution of new artificial bone formation
5) Ultimate reduction in stamina/power/flexibility

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Quote from: ZUCC420 on August 23, 2020, 08:44:46 PMI see, with all the "I was careful in researching" you did before undergoing LL, the only thing that ticked you off and that you absolutely needed to make sure wasn't the case was soft tissue stretching. Not the other heap of potential dire straits such as :

1) tensile strength reduction of ligaments
2) susceptible to tendon/ligament tears and ruptures
3) unwieldy center of mass that holds back potential
4) uneven weight distribution of new artificial bone formation
5) Ultimate reduction in stamina/power/flexibility

You putting words in my mouth. I never said that was the only thing I researched.
It was in the top of my priority, of course. Otherwise I wouldn't have done if LL was just some stretching of existent soft tissue.

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I agree with BetzLandLiberator.