I mean, obviously what I said was tongue-in-cheek, (my face is OK but not especially attractive for example) but yes. The way people place so much importance on height for attraction in this forum is really unhealthy... especially self-confidence, a sharp mind, and a sense of humour are the most important imo
Quote from: Jack1066 on March 01, 2017, 05:46:54 PMOn online dating most people say women are looking for men over 6'0" tall. That's not really my experience though. I definitely see a few profiles like that, and more who only go 5'10 and above, but really the large majority list a preference for a guy either an inch or two taller than them or just roughly around their height (even a couple of inches shorter).
Personally I think the pretty face and the captivating profile is what really ropes them in...
Your experience is that in online dating, the most superficial and judgmental of all 'dating' grounds the vast majority of women want a guy ranges from 2 inches taller to 2 inches shorter than themselves, which would be between 5'0" and 5'6" most of the time which is considered objectively short over somebody who is 6"+ in height? This seems to go against the general consensus and others experience.
I do agree that an attractive face is more important than height outside of extremes.
Quote from: Jack1066 on March 01, 2017, 01:06:50 PMI tried setting my height from 5'8" to 6'1" in online dating incidentally.
I actually am getting less hits and views... and no messages.
It could be for a whole bunch of reasons, probably because they think I'm lying. But I definitely expected to see more new views, because of how the search parameters are set.
Of course the reasons are other (I don't know them because I don't care much for online dating) and not the height.
Almost all women would prefer a 6.1ft (maybe the ideal height for a man imo) over a 5.8 ft guy if they were about the same in every other aspect and even the 5.8 ft guy was more handsome imo.
So you can't really believe that the same guy would have had less hits if he set his height at 6.1 in dating sites compared to 5.8. I can reassure you that at the first occasion (6.1 height) he would easily had 3-5 times more women's replies.
And if the guy's height was something like 5.5-5.6, the replies from women would have been maybe less than the fingers of my hand.
To clarify, I meant that the vast majority either look for a guy around their height or at least a little taller at minimum. Most don't look for a shorter guy but there are a few profiles- not an insignificant amount- that specify a couple of inches shorter is OK.
Oh, yeah, height is obviously an attractive quality, especially on online dating which is a bit like a meat market for 90% of the people using it. It's just that I don't think women seem to be setting particularly strict height parameters in their searches (which is easily done- I actually always do it, call me a hypocrite lol) because I'm literally having about the same numbers of views. I mean it doesn't list height until you actually click on the profile, only display profiles with the parameters you search, and I am saying I am not even getting any more views despite that.
No, they normally don't say they wouldn't mind a guy a bit shorter but it does happen often enough on the profiles with height preferences listed (actually most of the ones I look at for some reason don't have them). I guess it depends on the individual and it's just my own experience and everything. But most seem to have on their profiles just a bit above their height to around 8 inches/ a foot above their height. (Like a 5'4" girl I looked at who listed her height preference 5'4" to 6'4"). I guess that means most won't look at a man shorter than them but could like a guy their own height.
I don't like online dating much at all either, actually. It's pretty gross in a lot of ways and there are a lot of weird women on there lol. I only signed up because my friend made me...
They collected data on okcupid or eharmony or one of these dating/hook up sites and found that the response rate (and unsolicited messages rate) for "short" and "tall" men (like 6'1 + or 5'6 - ) was something like 30% different as far as I remember. I mean yeah that's a substantial difference but not 3 or 5 times like you say. I'll look it up again and see what the statistics were:
Here it is https://theblog.okcupid.com/the-big-lies-people-tell-in-online-dating-a9e3990d6ae2#.rdefb5k94
And yes 682, probably below the 10th or 5th percentile is pretty bad. That said I really think confidence also trumps an attractive face, unless your face is very good. Men have it pretty easy in that sense imo.
Quote from: BelowTheMean on February 28, 2017, 12:18:14 AM@DoingItForMe - responding to multiple posts and jumping in your conversation with Body Builder
I agree that increasing height by 3" in online dating should be pretty eye-opening for most people in that not much will change. You'll still be lost in a forest of men that women are cherry picking from. However, I'm currently in a relationship so I can't really do the test myself. Most of my dates came from meeting women IRL anyway, and 3" lifts are too obvious to wear. I do know that there are are spots where I could improve my online dating game aside from being taller, with lifestyle certainly being one of them. I am trying to take more exciting pictures when I'm out traveling and doing stuff in case I need it in the future! You mentioned to Body Builder that the cost of LL could easily be spent on non-LL things that could improve your dating profile. But if there are a bunch of pictures of you traveling to exotic places and living a lifestyle beyond your means, then that is what girls would expect when you are actually dating them. Is spending money in that way merely to enhance your dating profile any more real than doing LL?
I've spent maybe $10,000 on trips in the past year or so. If LL was $50,000, I'd have enough for another 4 years of trips. $10,000 is enough trips to take great pics. You only have 5 profile pics anyway. 5 trips. $10,000. Done deal. But if you don't want to spend $10,000, then do volunteering pics. I have pics of me doing charity work. That gets a lot of comments and likes, too.
Quote from: BelowTheMean on February 28, 2017, 12:18:14 AMRegarding attractiveness vs. personality, I have been with attractive girls only to realize a few weeks later that there's nothing there except the physical aspect. The chemical rush of the initial attraction can definitely blind you to other flaws such as a lackluster personality. We are human after all. But LL would definitely improve the odds of finding someone with both a good physical appearance and a good personality instead of having to sacrifice one for the other. You're right that looks fade over time, but that is not a reason to avoid maximizing the amount of time your partner has good looks, especially if you plan to be in it for the long haul. Personality can fluctuate over time too. Can you say that you're the same person as you were ten years ago as much as you can say you looked the same? If you have enough options to be considering a 8 in looks and 10 in personality vs a 10 in looks and 8 in personality.. well I think you're doing pretty good either way. Plus personality is subjective to an extent and your 8 might be someone else's 10. Then again, so are looks lol.
Honestly, when girls tell me why they date me. It's not because of my looks or my height. It's because they find me intelligent and funny and caring. Then you might say, "That's BS, if you were 5'6", she wouldn't date you." Well guess what guys? I went ahead and asked the 5'9" blonde/blue-eyed bombshell who I'm seeing if she would date me if I was 3" shorter. I was expecting her to say, "Probably not." or lie and say, "Yes, of course." Her response? "I actually dated a 5'6" guy for a while. I also dated a 6'1" guy for a while, too." Then I asked her if his height bothered her, and she said, "That 5'6" guy made me feel more secure because he was muscular. The 6'1" guy was really skinny, so it felt like I was protecting him instead of him protecting me."
Quote from: BelowTheMean on February 28, 2017, 12:18:14 AMRegarding the maturity of women (and defining mature as seeking out financial stability, etc over looks, height, etc.) I'm not sure I agree with your assessment. Sure, the level of maturity varies from woman to woman, but if you observe carefully you should notice that quite a few women become "mature" right around the time they've realized that they can't capitalize on their looks forever. At that point they decide they want to settle down and find a stable provider type, but is that really them maturing or has their hand simply been forced? How do you know if the "maturity" is authentic or if they just don't think they can get that tall and handsome guy anymore?
Because I've dated 18 year olds who thought this way before, and cared more about stability than looks. She said that she cared more about feeling secure than dating a good-looking loser. She said she dates older guys because of this reason. It's subjective to say whether or not this means that the girl is mature. But it's definitely differs from girl to girl. Some of you guys reject these girls by calling them gold diggers. But gold digging has various degrees. Some don't want your money. They just don't want a loser boyfriend who has no money, or spent all his savings on cosmetic surgery.
Quote from: BelowTheMean on February 28, 2017, 12:18:14 AM These mature women also happen to be the ones with quite a lot of baggage from the past, whether it's kids or the guy that got away. Yes, you can say that not all girls are like this, and some of them want a decent guy at a younger age when they still have plenty of options. These girls exist, but a lot of them get snatched up in college and you won't ever get a chance to meet them. The rest that are still single after they start working are rare, but once you add in a minimum threshold of attractiveness... well now we're talking exceedingly rare. Plus every other guy from age 18 to 60 is going after them too! The demand greatly exceeds the supply, so every advantage helps.. not all of us are millionaires haha! I really hope that these are the types of girls that are on your rich guy dating sites because in the general public I think it's like finding a needle in a haystack. Also regarding those sites I would also say to watch out for adverse selection. Consider that girls on rich guy dating sites are obviously going to say they prefer stability over looks. How many are going to like a picture of you with a million dollar car? Wouldn't that just arouse the guy's suspicion? How do you know that the same girls that say they like being pampered on those sites don't also have a Tinder profile and match every guy with a shirtless six pack picture? I guess what I'm trying to say is that women liking guys for either their looks or as a provider is not so black and white. I think most women would want both, but realistically she needs to consider what she brings to the table and then plays her cards in the way that benefits herself the most.
Because I speak with these girls. And you're right, they could be matching on Tinder and screwing with a 6-pack guy. Who knows? I actually do know a few girls who try to have a sugar daddy while screwing a cute young boyfriend as well. But you can sort of figure out which girl is crazy by speaking with them and seeing how often they check their phone and whether or not they date you on Valentine's Day, and etc. But the girl I've been sleeping with now is slim blonde, blue-eyed 5'8" (not the same as the 5'9" girl I'm talking to as well), under 25, speaks 4 languages, plays video games, and comes from a wealthy family. She told me that she dates older men mainly because younger guys are stupid, immature, and/or inexperienced. I'm significantly older than her, and yet she has never asked me about my finances. She pays for her own stuff. And when she's dating me, she never checks her phone. You think maybe it's rare, but honestly, I've been talking to at least 3 other girls who are potentially the same or better. Maybe I'm just really lucky and attract these girls. Guess which picture attracted the girl? Nope, not the cars and stuff, because she's wealthy herself. The charity photos did.
Quote from: BelowTheMean on February 28, 2017, 12:18:14 AMAlso on your other note, I have been in a long and serious relationship before. I would say on top of all the passive short guy hate accumulated over time, a lot of the guys on this site have a tipping point that brought them to LL.. usually in the form of a girl. Well this girl is the one who pushed me there. I dated her toward the end of college and during the first few years out of school. Everything was great at first - she was my ideal type both physically and intellectually, so I thought she was the one. However, long story short by mentally settling down I allowed my ambition to be reduced, which ultimately distanced her. Before we broke up she cheated on me with a guy who happened to be a lot taller. I was pretty stupid at the time and tried to reconcile things with her, which made her even more unhappy. I acted desperate and clingy then and she said a lot of excessively terrible and hurtful things regarding my height just to push me away. I think she figured out that it was a way to push my buttons. Looking back I don't think the primary reason she dumped me is because of my height, but at the time I was so certain that it was. She was never pleased about my height but obviously she was okay with it at some point while we were dating. All of the stuff she said about my height definitely had a psychological effect though. It drove me to read more about height and eventually learn about LL.
Ultimately I got over her and with that my height neurosis mostly went away, but just knowing about the existence of LL is something that can never go away. I don't think about LL nearly as much as I used to; lately it's more of an occasional thing when I get a reminder from something I hear.. usually a girl mentioning height. This has happened way too many times - a girl I am on a date with mentions a past boyfriend's height (over 6' of course) or asks me how tall I am when we're standing next to each other. I think it's some kind of power play which I am decent at deflecting since it rarely stops me from scoring, but it's still a downer!
I just want to be average height and not feel bad when people are talking about short guys whether directly to me or as a general topic of conversation. I want to answer what my height is without feeling challenged or thinking about LL. Maybe then I will never think about height ever again. I think that's kind of what you've experienced, minus our posts on your diary dragging you back to the forum 
Like I said, I think it'll improve your dating life. But just not like by a lot. It'll give you access to taller girls, but I find shorter girls to be just as awesome as the taller ones. So there's this other girl, brunette, stunning 5'9" who I've been seeing as well. I asked her if me being 5'9" would bother her, because she can't wear heels. She said, no, because she will still continue wearing heels - making her 6'. Then she asked if it'd bother me. I said confidently, "No, not at all. I'm more than just my height." She agreed, and that was that. Some girls simply don't care about the height stuff. Actually, most of the girls who I like don't care much about height. And they're all pretty mature girls, even though their age range is only from 20-28 years old. The ones who write like "6 foot+ guys only" also tend to have pretty ditzy written profiles. So, yes, I do find that maybe some guys on here are just chasing after the wrong type of girls.
Quote from: Megamuffin on February 28, 2017, 11:03:01 PMDo you regret the amount you lengthened by?
No. I don't have pain, and even though I don't walk normally now, it doesn't affect me much. Girls still date me, so I don't care.
Quote from: jojo on February 28, 2017, 12:56:53 AMokay
for how long does the docters exspekt you to walk like that ?
would you ever tell your wife ?
Paley has no clue. It probably goes away if I take the rods out. The screw heads on the rods rub against my flesh, so it trains me to walk a certain way to avoid pain. I think if the rods are out, then I can untrain myself. I'd never tell my wife. After how my long-term gf treated me and broke up with me after LL surgery, I decided to never tell anyone ever again.
Quote from: Jack1066 on March 01, 2017, 01:06:50 PMI tried setting my height from 5'8" to 6'1" in online dating incidentally.
I actually am getting less hits and views... and no messages.
It could be for a whole bunch of reasons, probably because they think I'm lying. But I definitely expected to see more new views, because of how the search parameters are set.
Yup, if more potential LLs did this, maybe they'll consider twice about doing this surgery, because they'll see that girls aren't like swarming them after being 6', like they imagined. Instead, me being wealthy and showing fun/lifestyle on my profile made girls swarm my profile.
Quote from: Jack1066 on March 02, 2017, 12:19:19 AMThey collected data on okcupid or eharmony or one of these dating/hook up sites and found that the response rate (and unsolicited messages rate) for "short" and "tall" men (like 6'1 + or 5'6 - ) was something like 30% different as far as I remember. I mean yeah that's a substantial difference but not 3 or 5 times like you say. I'll look it up again and see what the statistics were:
Here it is https://theblog.okcupid.com/the-big-lies-people-tell-in-online-dating-a9e3990d6ae2#.rdefb5k94
And yes 682, probably below the 10th or 5th percentile is pretty bad. That said I really think confidence also trumps an attractive face, unless your face is very good. Men have it pretty easy in that sense imo.
That's funny. If you look at the link you posted, you can scroll down and see that people who make 100k+ get significantly more messages than those who are poor. This is what I've been saying. Want to attract girls? Make more money. When people cry to me and say that they can't be rich because they come from a poor family, it's funny because I came from a poor family. More like they can't because they don't try hard enough or smart enough. The second part is important, too. Read books on how other wealthy people did it. They think differently from normal people. I have a few books to recommend too if you guys PM me for those books. I'm not going to advertise books on here.
Quote from: Jack1066 on March 01, 2017, 05:46:54 PMOn online dating most people say women are looking for men over 6'0" tall. That's not really my experience though. I definitely see a few profiles like that, and more who only go 5'10 and above, but really the large majority list a preference for a guy either an inch or two taller than them or just roughly around their height (even a couple of inches shorter).
Personally I think the pretty face and the captivating profile is what really ropes them in...
I have the same experience. Mostly they want same height or over, and that's it.
Hi DoingItForMe
Please tell me how much money you spent。
thx
Quote from: yyes on February 28, 2017, 01:13:00 AM@belowthemean
At what height does height stop being an issue in your opinion?
Also very well written post. Alot of what you said is so true
The answer to your question is pretty subjective so I don't think there's a single correct answer. That it's subjective may even be why LL fixes height dysphoria to an extent. Personally I think 5'9" is the threshold height for an Asian guy in the US. While you won't stand out for your height and won't get any direct benefits from being tall, you shouldn't get any of the drawbacks from being short either. It also helps that you'd be taller than almost all women barefoot, and equal to or taller than most women in heels. I don't think I would consider getting height surgery if I was 5'9", and I have friends who are 5'7" or 5'8" who are perfectly okay with their heights. However I wouldn't be able to say what I think is a good height for a guy of any other race or living in any other country because I have no experience there.
Quote from: DoingItForMe on March 02, 2017, 04:49:29 AMI've spent maybe $10,000 on trips in the past year or so. If LL was $50,000, I'd have enough for another 4 years of trips. $10,000 is enough trips to take great pics. You only have 5 profile pics anyway. 5 trips. $10,000. Done deal. But if you don't want to spend $10,000, then do volunteering pics. I have pics of me doing charity work. That gets a lot of comments and likes, too.
Honestly, when girls tell me why they date me. It's not because of my looks or my height. It's because they find me intelligent and funny and caring. Then you might say, "That's BS, if you were 5'6", she wouldn't date you." Well guess what guys? I went ahead and asked the 5'9" blonde/blue-eyed bombshell who I'm seeing if she would date me if I was 3" shorter. I was expecting her to say, "Probably not." or lie and say, "Yes, of course." Her response? "I actually dated a 5'6" guy for a while. I also dated a 6'1" guy for a while, too." Then I asked her if his height bothered her, and she said, "That 5'6" guy made me feel more secure because he was muscular. The 6'1" guy was really skinny, so it felt like I was protecting him instead of him protecting me."
Because I've dated 18 year olds who thought this way before, and cared more about stability than looks. She said that she cared more about feeling secure than dating a good-looking loser. She said she dates older guys because of this reason. It's subjective to say whether or not this means that the girl is mature. But it's definitely differs from girl to girl. Some of you guys reject these girls by calling them gold diggers. But gold digging has various degrees. Some don't want your money. They just don't want a loser boyfriend who has no money, or spent all his savings on cosmetic surgery.
Because I speak with these girls. And you're right, they could be matching on Tinder and screwing with a 6-pack guy. Who knows? I actually do know a few girls who try to have a sugar daddy while screwing a cute young boyfriend as well. But you can sort of figure out which girl is crazy by speaking with them and seeing how often they check their phone and whether or not they date you on Valentine's Day, and etc. But the girl I've been sleeping with now is slim blonde, blue-eyed 5'8" (not the same as the 5'9" girl I'm talking to as well), under 25, speaks 4 languages, plays video games, and comes from a wealthy family. She told me that she dates older men mainly because younger guys are stupid, immature, and/or inexperienced. I'm significantly older than her, and yet she has never asked me about my finances. She pays for her own stuff. And when she's dating me, she never checks her phone. You think maybe it's rare, but honestly, I've been talking to at least 3 other girls who are potentially the same or better. Maybe I'm just really lucky and attract these girls. Guess which picture attracted the girl? Nope, not the cars and stuff, because she's wealthy herself. The charity photos did.
Like I said, I think it'll improve your dating life. But just not like by a lot. It'll give you access to taller girls, but I find shorter girls to be just as awesome as the taller ones. So there's this other girl, brunette, stunning 5'9" who I've been seeing as well. I asked her if me being 5'9" would bother her, because she can't wear heels. She said, no, because she will still continue wearing heels - making her 6'. Then she asked if it'd bother me. I said confidently, "No, not at all. I'm more than just my height." She agreed, and that was that. Some girls simply don't care about the height stuff. Actually, most of the girls who I like don't care much about height. And they're all pretty mature girls, even though their age range is only from 20-28 years old. The ones who write like "6 foot+ guys only" also tend to have pretty ditzy written profiles. So, yes, I do find that maybe some guys on here are just chasing after the wrong type of girls.
After reading through this, I think our disagreement stems from you trusting what women say a lot more than I do. I believe in their actions much more than their words, and I've seen plenty of girls who appear kind on the surface do some terrible things. You can't always take everything at face value. Maybe it's due to the cynicism from my past experiences, but I think that women (really, all people) tend to say what they think the other person wants to hear, especially if they are incentivized to do so. I also think how a woman feels about a man influences what she thinks about that man. For example, if a woman feels attracted to a man, she'll also think that he's taller and more masculine and vice versa. Because of this, a lot of guys might hear something like "you're too short for me" when the girl really just means "I'm not attracted to you in general." This may be part of the reason why there are many guys here obsessed about height when changing it may not even be a huge impact to dating. It paints a target onto something out of your control and lets you blame it for your failures rather than being introspective.
That being said, I know there are good girls out there...or at least girls that are more capable of good than bad. At least that's what I want to believe, and why I still try. However I think if you add in the limitation that these girls must also be physically attractive, then in my personal experience they are quite rare. The fact that you meet these kinds of girls in abundance when I hardly meet any certainly signifies to me that our differences are much greater than merely two inches of height. Of course I've always understood that height is only a tiny piece of attraction, yet I've let myself obsess over it for so long. Clearly there is still another level that I can push myself to without undergoing cosmetic surgery. That is of course, greatly increasing my wealth. Maybe the types of girls that you are dating are inaccessible to me otherwise.
Don't worry, I won't replace one compulsion with another. I understand that the money itself is not what we want girls to be attracted to, but rather the type of lifestyle that a wealthy person is able to have and the mindset of such a person. Having the portfolio to never need to rely on a job for income, knowing I had the money and freedom to travel and do things on a whim, and having the power to change people's lives are just a few of the qualities that are attractive to women and produce confidence in a guy on another level. These things simply can't be faked with "game", and pretending they don't matter won't make my dating life any better. I understand the necessity of working for myself to become rich, but my life and job have always been comfortable enough to to just go with the flow. Rather than pushing myself in my free time, I've let side projects fizzle and various opportunities slip away. Today that changes. I'm going to knock LL down a few pegs on my priority list and upgrade growing a business to the very top.
So thank you for responding to my posts, DIFM.. it has given me a lot to process. I'd like to think I'm fairly level-headed about the whole LL thing. I have the goal of financial independence and have always been a saver, so I actually do have the assets to pay for femurs with Paley in cash. However, the cost is too big a percentage of my current net worth, and I haven't figured out the best way to take a break from my career, so I never got close to pulling the trigger. I know there are definitely some guys on this forum that would spend all their savings to get the surgery, but I'm not one of them. I will be taking an indefinite break from the forum. While I can never close Pandora's Box, maybe I'll reach the point where I'm just okay with being 5'7". If not, I'll be back... hopefully after I have achieved the aforementioned level of financial success and tried out the corresponding dating life.
Best of luck on your bone growth and hopefully taking the rods out will fix your gait!
So the point of D.i.f.m. is to don't do LL to attract women but be rich to attract women?
I think that a woman who wants to be with you (even if she is not completely a gold digger but needs some kind of safety) is much more shallow compared to a woman who is attracted by relatively tall men and also she is less desirable for me because she needs a man and his money to feel safe and isn't capable enough to make her own money and be with a man that truly likes for what he is and not how much he earns.
Furthermore, I don't know from what family you are difm but 99% of people who come from poor families can't become millionaires unless they win the lottery.
And I really don't want to be a millionaire, first of all because I don't believe that money bring happiness and furthermore because I hate social unequalities and if there are millionaires there are on the opposite million poor people and thats completely unfair.
And finally, being rich doesn't mean that you are attractive too. And I don't want to be with a very hot woman if I'm not attractive too but I only have much money because I'll never know if she would like me if I didn't have all these money. And most of the times she wouldn't have been with me if I wasn't wealthy but with an another rich man.
Amd after all, it is always possible to lose your money but you won't lose your good appearance if you take care of yourself and don't have any bad accident (in that case I don't think that you would care much about women anyway).
So, if someone has enough money to don't live miserable he is completely ok and don't have to be a millionaire to be with good looking women.
Millionaires attract most of the times gold diggers or insecure women, on the other hand attractive men with a moderate income can attract most of the times any women they want if they have some good social skills and good chemistry with each of these women.
And as I said before, and most of surveys agree with me, height with a built (not necessarily muscular) body is the number one appearance factor for a man.
So I truly believe that a successful LL and a good appearance will bring you much more happiness than being an unattractive or at most average attractive man who have women most of the times due to his money.
Difm I'm not refering to you of course as I don't know you, I hope you don't misumderstand me.
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